Power Conditioning Advice

[Speedskater]

..............................
(The 75 amp transformer is of course wired as a completely separate electrical system with its own 1 inch by 8 ft copper ground rod and 400 lbs of grounding mix.) The noise floor is nil.

That's a very dangerous situation if the components that it powers have any signal wires connected to components powered by other AC circuits.
With a nearby lightning strike, there could be several thousand volts difference in potential between it's components and the other circuits components.

If a large transformer is wired as a Separately Derived System with it's own (isolated) ground rods, you should not have any signal or data wires connected to other AC systems.

 

[Speedskater]

Thoughts:
a] a 10 Amp transformer will saturate long before it gets to 100 Amps.
b] a 34AWG wire will turn into a fuse at 5.1 Amps.
c] 'instantaneous current' suggests a square wave, which is the last thing that you want. All the usable current is at 500-600 Hz or below (some might say 5000-6000 Hz) anything above that is noise and interference. Good power supply circuit designers use RC networks on the bridge rectifiers to reduce the high frequency switching noise. Audiophiles often buy power conditioners to reduce this high frequency noise.

 

[dminches]

Thoughts:
a] a 10 Amp transformer will saturate long before it gets to 100 Amps.
b] a 34AWG wire will turn into a fuse at 5.1 Amps.
c] 'instantaneous current' suggests a square wave, which is the last thing that you want. All the usable current is at 500-600 Hz or below (some might say 5000-6000 Hz) anything above that is noise and interference. Good power supply circuit designers use RC networks on the bridge rectifiers to reduce the high frequency switching noise. Audiophiles often buy power conditioners to reduce this high frequency noise.

Maybe you can provide context here. What are you referring to?

 

[Speedskater]

Maybe you can provide context here. What are you referring to?

Bits & pieces from previous posts in this thread.

 

[Folsom]

I'm loving my Torus RM 15 Plus isolation transformers (1 for each mono). My Pass amps sound better with them and have more instant current than plugging them straight into the wall. The amps really came alive. I am using PS AUDIO P5 regenerators for source. I would like to try a torus on the source too at some point to compare with the PS Audio.

I think you mean it sounds like it has more instant current. You don't have a measurement, and you won't get one for that. This is complicated issue in that what we hear may not correlate at all with what is happening. I use to think I was hearing current improvements often, but when you dig in you find out most things are not current changes.

That's good to know that Pass amps like to have conditioning. Please do let us know Torus vs. regen.

 

[microstrip]

That's a very dangerous situation if the components that it powers have any signal wires connected to components powered by other AC circuits.
With a nearby lightning strike, there could be several thousand volts difference in potential between it's components and the other circuits components.

If a large transformer is wired as a Separately Derived System with it's own (isolated) ground rods, you should not have any signal or data wires connected to other AC systems.

Do you think we can rely on 5m of optical fiber to insulate the systems?

 

[Pb Blimp]

That's a very dangerous situation if the components that it powers have any signal wires connected to components powered by other AC circuits.
With a nearby lightning strike, there could be several thousand volts difference in potential between it's components and the other circuits components.

If a large transformer is wired as a Separately Derived System with it's own (isolated) ground rods, you should not have any signal or data wires connected to other AC systems.

Well duh. Its also dangerous to stick your tongue in the hot end of a receptacle. That's why you don't do such a thing. No "step voltage" risk when the system is 100% standalone. The only thing coming into my room other than the stand alone electrical system is glass which connects to my network and the media converter in the room which (converts the light back to electricity) is, of course, powered by the standalone system.

As an aside, the other negative consequence of what you describe from an SQ perspective is that one of the primary purposes of a properly designed stand alone system (in addition to having lots of available clean current to recharge components capacitors) is that the system uses short, equal length heavy gauge wire to mitigate ground loops and bleed low level stray micro-voltages induced into the ground wires from components (similar to what and Entreq does). Spending a lot of time and money for this purpose and then plugging a system component into the building mains versus the standalone would not just be dangerous in a lighting storm it would be really stupid as it relates to the systems purpose.

Kev, you seem to always come running with what can be perceived to be reprimands on power stuff without getting the facts first. Maybe try it the other way around.

 

[microstrip]

Well duh. Its also dangerous to stick your tongue in the hot end of a receptacle. That's why you don't do such a thing. No "step voltage" risk when the system is 100% standalone. The only thing coming into my room other than the stand alone electrical system is glass which connects to my network and the media converter in the room which (converts the light back to electricity) is, of course, powered by the standalone system.

As an aside, the other negative consequence of what you describe from an SQ perspective is that one of the primary purposes of a properly designed stand alone system (in addition to having lots of available clean current to recharge components capacitors) is that the system uses short, equal length heavy gauge wire to mitigate ground loops and bleed low level stray micro-voltages induced into the ground wires from components (similar to what and Entreq does). Spending a lot of time and money for this purpose and then plugging a system component into the building mains versus the standalone would not just be dangerous in a lighting storm it would be really stupid as it relates to the systems purpose.

Kev, you seem to always come running with what can be perceived to be reprimands on power stuff without getting the facts first. Maybe try it the other way around.

What Kevin says about separate grounds is really true and important - in many countries it even violates the electrical code. An electrician doing it can be sent to jail in case of a misfortune.

 

[Pb Blimp]

What Kevin says about separate grounds is really true and important - in many countries it even violates the electrical code. An electrician doing it can be sent to jail in case of a misfortune.

??? Yes of course its true. I was agreeing with him. It violates electrical code to have connected devices share electrical systems with separate grounds. Which was his point. It does not violate code to to design and install a separate system in a facility if it is done in compliance with said electrical code and does not create the potential for "step voltage" which was my point.

"A certified electrician with local permits is the starting point for any transformer installation." Captain Obvious circa 1881

 

[Pb Blimp]

I think you mean it sounds like it has more instant current. You don't have a measurement, and you won't get one for that. This is complicated issue in that what we hear may not correlate at all with what is happening. I use to think I was hearing current improvements often, but when you dig in you find out most things are not current changes.

That's good to know that Pass amps like to have conditioning. Please do let us know Torus vs. regen.

As we have covered several times, IMO what he is hearing when he refers to instant current and amps "coming alive" is a more immediate recharging of storage capacitance in the system components (mainly amps) resulting in a nearly infinite impulse response. This is achieved by having extremely low output impedance at the Torus versus a wall unit that is fed with a few hundred feet of 14 gauge. You have made it very clear you don't believe this but it is what we (think) hear with these devices.

I guess my question to you is what is the purpose of capacitance storage in an amp? It is of course to provide reserves during demanding passages of playback. So why can you not understand that making access to recharging current does not further improve the amps ability to meet high dynamic requirements in those same passages as they continue beyond the first draw down?

 

[microstrip]

??? Yes of course its true. I was agreeing with him. It violates electrical code to have connected devices share electrical systems with separate grounds. Which was his point. It does not violate code to to design and install a separate system in a facility if it is done in compliance with said electrical code and does not create the potential for "step voltage" which was my point.

"A certified electrician with local permits is the starting point for any transformer installation." Captain Obvious circa 1881

The question is what are the physical boundaries of "system". According to many local codes code the system is defined by the whole zone covered by the electricity entry point and we can not have more than one entry point per residence - for example I can not have a different supplier of electricity for my house appliances and another for my listening room. If you local code permits having more than one ground point in a residence you have no legal problems, surely.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

The question is what are the physical boundaries of "system". According to many local codes code the system is defined by the whole zone covered by the electricity entry point and we can not have more than one entry point per residence - for example I can not have a different supplier of electricity for my house appliances and another for my listening room. If you local code permits having more than one ground point in a residence you have no legal problems, surely.

in my case I have 2 separate services to my barn (from my main panel in my house garage) 100 feet away from my house. one is a 100 amp service to a panel (without separate ground rod) in the barn for lights, HVAC and various outlets. the other is a 70amp service to my Equi=tech 10WQ wall panel (with a separate ground rod) for my 2 channel system.

 

[Folsom]

Paul,

While no one that is educated on the subject would think your ideas about the speed of current to recharge capacitors... Let me ask you as if anything you said were true... if this ability to charge capacitors is better, what about the other 80% of the time when the capacitors are not being charged but the music can be playing just as demandingly?

Capacitors in a linear power supply are only charged at the peaks of the 60hz cycle. For a transformer to provide power at any and all times it would have to be DC power... which cannot pass through a transformer. Another option is that the 60hz can increase on demand to a higher hz like 100000hz, to meet the demand of instant impulse charging you go on about - this would require power suppliers to defy physics and make theif armetures instantly change speed irrespective of the first law from Issac Newton. Lastly it could be a capacitor that is charged seperately but would also require DC or instant changing frequency cycles - obviously this isn't happening, for reasons given already and that DC will saturate a transformer.

You explain it like his 120v to 120v transformers change the fact that there is romex before them. If I have a water system that is 1/2" and put a coupling on the end that expands to 1", I don't gain anything that did not previously exist. I do not magically get the pressure of a lake wanting to rush in.

The autoformer action of the 120v to 120v could actually reduce charging times because it won't be able to swing the voltage up on demand. Transformers naturally sag a litttle voltagd under use. The 240v to 120v is different as it is autoforming down, not up a little, so it will be a little stiffer, but still not able to change on demand. Converting up a few volts also reduces overall current a hair. When you change voltage you do it be increasing or decreasing current through a transformer, in a reverse corolation.

So to conclude... like before. The benefit of an isolation transformer is that it isolates noise on the AC lines. The reduced harmonics may have a minor effect on quality of power delivery but no more than any other device that reduces harmonics. Again back to noise, not avaliable current nonsense. Btw when harmonics are causing some small power issues, the improvement by removal is based in voltage not dipping. The sound of that makes one think current, but it is not.

"So why can you not understand that making access to recharging current does not further improve the amps ability to meet high dynamic requirements in those same passages as they continue beyond the first draw down?"

It isn't me whom needs to understand, because this isn't happening.

 

[LL21]

Question gents from the non-techie on capacitors:

1. Is the role of the capacitor to provide available energy during, for example, big bass hits so the amp does not hit a temporary under-voltage situation?
2. The larger the cap (all else being equal with the cap), the better/faster it is able to get ready for the next big bass hit?

3. Presume this is very different than capacitor role of blocking DC?

Just trying to follow the discussions here about how/why capacitors matter...and the implications of having huge storage/capacitance. I certainly see people like Aries Cerat, Gryphon and others adding massive amounts of capacitance to their electronics...1M microfarads or more.

 

[Folsom]

Capacitors in the power supply do a few things.

They are needed to reduce "ripple" which looks like 60hz humps - and turn it into a 0hz so it isnt mixing with music, aka DC. By doing so they maintain voltage. In between the peak cycles of 60hz the capacitors discharge to maintain voltage. The amount of voltage drop they have depends on the amount of current being used. In order to reduce the voltage drop what you do is increase the amount of capacitance so your overall amount or energy being used is less compared to the capacitors. It is like if you need 4 cups of water, if you pour it from a gallon you have a lot less than a gallon, but if you pour it from a 300,000 gallon water tower, you still pretty much have a 300,000 gallon water tower.

Capacitors store energy, joules. Which is why they can provide current.

You cannot seperate their voltage function from their current providing. They do both between cycles.

 

[LL21]

Capacitors in the power supply do a few things.

They are needed to reduce "ripple" which looks like 60hz humps - and turn it into a 0hz so it isnt mixing with music, aka DC. By doing so they maintain voltage. In between the peak cycles of 60hz the capacitors discharge to maintain voltage. The amount of voltage drop they have depends on the amount of current being used. In order to reduce the voltage drop what you do is increase the amount of capacitance so your overall amount or energy being used is less compared to the capacitors. It is like if you need 4 cups of water, if you pour it from a gallon you have a lot less than a gallon, but if you pour it from a 300,000 gallon water tower, you still pretty much have a 300,000 gallon water tower.

Capacitors store energy, joules. Which is why they can provide current.

You cannot seperate their voltage function from their current providing. They do both between cycles.

Thanks!!!

 

[KeithR]

As we have covered several times, IMO what he is hearing when he refers to instant current and amps "coming alive" is a more immediate recharging of storage capacitance in the system components (mainly amps) resulting in a nearly infinite impulse response. This is achieved by having extremely low output impedance at the Torus versus a wall unit that is fed with a few hundred feet of 14 gauge. You have made it very clear you don't believe this but it is what we (think) hear with these devices.

I think the "amps coming alive" is due to lower noise.

I own a Torus AVR15 - that Folsom has even heard fyi. I recently played with an Audioquest 1000 power distributor - the Torus was considerably better in my setup. But also, I live within spitting distance to 500 units so it may be a combination of things that a single family home dweller doesn't benefit from.

I honestly want to get rid of a 60lb box in my system, but so far there hasn't been a reason to. I might try a WyWires power broker after my move later this year, but until then not making power changes.

to the OP- Torus is a wonderful company to work with unlike Equitech.

 

[dminches]

to the OP- Torus is a wonderful company to work with unlike Equitech.

I spoke to someone there last week and the gentlemen spent 20 minutes explaining the different products to me. Wasn’t a sales pitch at all. Just the technology.

So, if I get a wall unit to send power to the whole room what is the best way to plug 6 devices into a dual outlet? I don’t see the need to use my RSA power conditioner with the Torus. What should I be using?

 

[microstrip]

(...) to the OP- Torus is a wonderful company to work with unlike Equitech.

The main question is that although both are isolation transformers they focus on addressing different problems. Wise audiophiles should have their mains diagnosed, as well as their equipment and then decide.

 

[dminches]

The main question is that although both are isolation transformers they focus on addressing different problems.

What are the differences?