Power cords - do they really make a difference, other than potentially reduce noise?

[DonH50]

Hi Nicholas,

I can probably dig up my files, but the model numbers will have changed in the last few years (don't know about the guts, but Marketing says we need new models every six months, right? ) I will try to 'member to check the APC site -- you want to know about the higher-end double-conversion systems for continuous use? Or were you talking about the lab-grade stuff?

BackUPS are not that good, and in fact not rated for motor use. SmartUPS are much better, but they have several levels of technology. The lab-grade stuff is clean but pretty old, and I think the last time we priced new stuff is was ~$25k for a 1 kW system (typo in my first post, sorry). I can look into that as well if you wish, take me a little longer.

A more practical solution might be a SmartUPS system with additional industrial filters or a Sola-type system (resonant transformers) on the outputs to provide better isolation and cleaner waveforms. Probably a lot cheaper than a lab-grade system (<$5k, guessing).

HTH - Don

 

[FrantzM]

Hi Nicholas,

I can probably dig up my files, but the model numbers will have changed in the last few years (don't know about the guts, but Marketing says we need new models every six months, right? ) I will try to 'member to check the APC site -- you want to know about the higher-end double-conversion systems for continuous use? Or were you talking about the lab-grade stuff?

BackUPS are not that good, and in fact not rated for motor use. SmartUPS are much better, but they have several levels of technology. The lab-grade stuff is clean but pretty old, and I think the last time we priced new stuff is was ~$25k for a 1 kW system (typo in my first post, sorry). I can look into that as well if you wish, take me a little longer.

A more practical solution might be a SmartUPS system with additional industrial filters or a Sola-type system (resonant transformers) on the outputs to provide better isolation and cleaner waveforms. Probably a lot cheaper than a lab-grade system (<$5k, guessing).

HTH - Don

Hi (Long, Long, Long Post)

This is a great subject in itself.. It is something I have been advocating for a long while in many fora. I have believed in cables personally. I have shelled ungodly amount of money on cables.. My last set of cables would likely allow the purchase of a superb system. The speaker cables would run over 10 K easily …. I am off that wagon after a blind experience I conducted, the experience itself prompted by another a member here had. I wasn’t able to distinguish between my expensive cables and thick 6 AWG cable. Cables used to link DC batteries to AC power Inverters … The sky did not come tumbling down. I simply realized that I had been approaching the hobby in a wrong and expensive fashion. Oh! No! I don’t think that everything sounds the same.. Not speakers, not components, Not DAC but cables.. Good gauge, electrically and mechanically adequate ? SAME…
.
Even when I believed in cables, I have, however, never believed in the "magic" of power cords. It could not make sense then and will not make sense now in the future. I have been involved on a practical level in AC Power Quality at my former business. ISP/Service Telecom Provider in Haiti. (For those who have read this already, I apologize). There we had beore the very unfortunate events of January 10, about 40 hours of Electricity a week … We noticed that when using the AC grid we tended to have serious equipment failures .. (Microwave amplifiers would simply die for no particular reason , Satellite HPAs would just go off without notice or Server really misbehaving .. crashing … We met with a FCC fellow , a consultant and he steered us toward the very alien concept of Power Quality and that is when I began to really observe what commercial AC is made of.

First keep in mind that power lines travel for miles in an environment where EMI and RFI are simply part of the scenery .. Wherever we are there is RFI and sometimes High Level of it. If one were to just look at what is coming form your AC mains through an oscilloscope one would be quite edified. On top of the gentle supposed sine wave at 60 Hz rides all kind of nasties .. The signal is too often very far from a sinusoid… We are also supposing it is stable , something it is not .. varying wildly with all kind of brownout ( sudden drop in voltage ) and black-outs .. etc … plus the RFI plus the EMI … My beef has always been what do you think that 6 feet of nice cryogenically treated piece of jewelry , er… cable can do for that, unless it has a real filter in its construction, some may, I don’t know very well if they do but that would require these to be big and with a box at their end something I haven’t seen in any of these nice expensive cables… and it would not solve the problem of stability of Voltage … so there to me they could not work and in my auditions .. well they did never work .. Once I got one of sufficient size .. they simply were the same to me then and more so now …

Now back to my encounter with the Power Quality notion. We went and purchased a Telecom Grade UPS a Lorain Huge, Heavy noisy, they are ferroresonant (not all Lorain but these were) and they were double conversion UPS ( Rectifier , Battery in the middle and an Inverter at the end ..)

AC -----[AC to DC rectifier] -------[Batteries]-----[DC to AC Inverter]

In the better system the DC to AC inverter provide a pure stable solid sinusoid .. In my Lorain which by the way survived the catastrophe, you get 120 VAC with plus or minus 5% of voltage regulation at 150% maximum load, the unit is conservatively rated at 10 KW but would work forever at 15 KW not KVA , no Sire WATTS!! At 3% of THD at full capacity regardless of load capacitive, resistive, combination of LRC it does not matter… Oh I was going to forget frequency regulationin the Lorain was better than 1%!! What the load sees is the clean, stable, distortion-free current from the inverter regardless of how dirty or instable the AC mains are. In a double conversion UPS all the AC mains is needed for is to charge the batteries.. the rectifier are usually stout to take any kind of poor AC mains you can dish at them and the batteries take over when the main really are not up to it … Big frequency variations , voltage drop or over-voltage.. brownouts, black-outs, etc

I wasn’t ready to believe that would make a difference but it does , The system sounded to me better, changing to regular AC was very audible. I did not care to go further.. My system was sounding much better and actually it make sense since the system receive what it was design for .. Pure AC , something the commercial AC can’t provide and something NO Power Cord regardless of price can’t fashion out of nothing …

Now about Audiophile conditioners … Don’t start me here but I can say that there are about one or two models I know to do just that.. Basically regenerate the AC .. I know the Burmester 948 does that, I have never used it…. I know the PS Audio does that too … It produces its very own AC and if one has to be an audiophile AC conditioner that would be the one, decently priced too . . I don’t care about the trickery of doubling the frequency, etc … but it is a sound idea… and likely makes your system sound better

And there is the Equitech which is a little different .. Suffice to say that it splits what comes from the AC in two with respect to ground now at 180 degrees of phase difference. +60 and -60. The noise from both sides cancel themselves out quite well. I still don’t know how do they provide voltage regulation. The system can’t do that and thus assume your AC is stable .. Often a HUGE assumption. .. and to be on the safe side they use a rather big isolation transformer which further filters out the EMI and other higher frequencies nasties … It is a very sound product and I have no doubt that the differences are audible and that once you used it All electrically good cable become the same …
I have not used the Equitech personally. It is however scientifically sound and to me that counts .. I am not on the wagon of these quantum treated items ..that can’t work because well their explanation is nonsense .. As for serendipity … one has to wonder how these guys get to have so much of it on their side …

Now about APC .. There are many good brand of Double conversion UPS , Lorain for one, Sola, Liebert, There was Best Power in the past, I don’t think they are in existence. These can be found if one looks hard for them but they are often big big and unwieldy. I don’t see these very easily in a domestic environment, next to your amp for example… If one has a generator and utility shed … well .. In Haiti that is almost a requirement to have electricity in one’s home on consistent basis with those 30 hours of electricity a week … Back to APC … This brand is almost synonymous with UPS . They make cheap, small units that ost people know about , ths Nicholas earlier post … The double conversion units start at a size about as big as an audiophile amp. I suggest to start with those at 3000 VA which I have experience with. These should provide enough power for most systems. The price (about $2500 for a $3000 VA) is squarely in what audiophile do spend on their specialty power cords and they will trump ANY audiophile power conditioner for the price .. No they don’t have cryogenically treated outlets but one could always replace theirs with those. As for NEC compliance I don’t know but your electrical contractor.., the same one you used for your “dedicated” lines to your amp would give you a quotation. ( I don’t believe that dedicated lines are much of a solution, since the same AC is split from your main box .. SAME AC. The only thing you have “dedicated’ to your system or your amps is a breaker .. You continue to share the same AC as the rest of the house and all induced noise is share too )

The benefits of pure AC in your system are Immediate. From my experience the noise level of the system decreases .. yes the sound changes .. I will not use any audiophile term.. Oh Heck I will: blacker background …etc. Your system is protected, it never sees the AC mains and whatever happens there doesn’t affect your system short of a direct lightning strike and even in this were to happen the rectifier is likely the one to be shot first … and you get to play your equipment even when there is a blackout albeit for only a few minutes..
The APC line what would qualify are not these puny noisy boxes people put on their PC .. the BackUPS .. You need to start with the Line-interactive biggies at least 2000 VA
Something like THAT ONE whose price is $2700 … it will provide easily 2100 watts to your system unless you use monster amps that is enough for the most powerful systems and they have models up to 30 KVA so... yes .. Mark Basspig, you could use one in your system too …

If that is OT .. we can always move this in another thread …

P.S Don, $25 K for 1 Kw is very unlikely ... I don't know ANY UPS with that kind of price ... even Teleco-Grade -NEBS level 3 are not priced that high ... Very unlikely ...

 

[Steve williams]

Terrific post Frantz.


Call coming

 

[DonH50]

Awesome post Frantz, thank you!

That $25k supply was a lab-grade beast and I am probably wrong about the rating but it's what I recall. It was essentially a custom job built for extreme precision and low noise that we used outside a screen room, with the power crossing the wall through triple-wall conduit. It was about the size of a 3' high audio rack. IIRC, regulation was 1% from 10% to 100% of rated load, and THD was really low, something like 0.1 - 0.5%. It used ferroresonant technology as well, used an analog oscillator and power amp (no switching), and had a series of filters to suppress anything up to about 10 GHz. It was essentially a 60 Hz oscillator with a 1 kW amp after it. This was not something any audiophile needs!

 

[mauidan]

If you want to run your system off battery power inverted to AC, instead of investing a lot of money into a big UPS, why not take advantage of the current State & Federal tax credits and install a solar system on your home. When you not charging the batteries, you can pump the excess power back into the grid and reduce your electric bill through net metering.

 

[amirm]

If you want to run your system off battery power inverted to AC, instead of investing a lot of money into a big UPS, why not take advantage of the current State & Federal tax credits and install a solar system on your home. When you not charging the batteries, you can pump the excess power back into the grid and reduce your electric bill through net metering.

Your good intentions are noted . This application aside, battery based solar systems are not the best ideas. Batteries require maintenance, have longer term cost with battery replacement and have environmental considerations (e.g. batteries need to be vented). And of course they cost more money so your payback is longer. So unless you are in a remote area with no utility power, people are better off using their utility as a giant battery through net metering and not install their own. You will save money and aggravation that way.

 

[mauidan]

Your good intentions are noted . This application aside, battery based solar systems are not the best ideas. Batteries require maintenance, have longer term cost with battery replacement and have environmental considerations (e.g. batteries need to be vented). And of course they cost more money so your payback is longer. So unless you are in a remote area with no utility power, people are better off using their utility as a giant battery through net metering and not install their own. You will save money and aggravation that way.

Electric rates here on Maui are very high and there's very little chance they'll ever go down. With the current tax credits and lower installation costs, the payback period has been greatly reduced. I'm have an analysis done on my home. I plan to have a small battery back up to power my listening room at night, which will be outside the house.

 

[FrantzM]

Electric rates here on Maui are very high and there's very little chance they'll ever go down. With the current tax credits and lower installation costs, the payback period has been greatly reduced. I'm have an analysis done on my home. I plan to have a small battery back up to power my listening room at night, which will be outside the house.

Dev

I don't know what is the total consumption of your listening room. Small battery pack is unlikely however. Continuous consumption as low as 500 watts ... meaning EVERYTHING (CD player, Amplifier, lighting, etc) would require a rather sizable batteries bank for any decent autonomy... I am supposing a 24 Volt pure sine wave inverter here ..You need to have about 100 Amp-hour batteries for a little over 3 hours of autonomy.. You can't turn your PJ or even a fan and forget about anything Class A.. Oh!! and Entirely Forget air conditioning ...
Small is a subjective term but it looks like for 4 hours of autonomy (you could have more but likely you don't need your battery to run too deep into discharge) you would have 4 batteries measuring each 11 L x 11 W x 8 D and weighing each 62 pounds ... I am not sure that qualifies for "small"

 

[mauidan]

Dev

I don't know what is the total consumption of your listening room. Small battery pack is unlikely however. Continuous consumption as low as 500 watts ... meaning EVERYTHING (CD player, Amplifier, lighting, etc) would require a rather sizable batteries bank for any decent autonomy... I am supposing a 24 Volt pure sine wave inverter here ..You need to have about 100 Amp-hour batteries for a little over 3 hours of autonomy.. You can't turn your PJ or even a fan and forget about anything Class A.. Oh!! and Entirely Forget air conditioning ...
Small is a subjective term but it looks like for 4 hours of autonomy (you could have more but likely you don't need your battery to run too deep into discharge) you would have 4 batteries measuring each 11 L x 11 W x 8 D and weighing each 62 pounds ... I am not sure that qualifies for "small"

Mahalo for your input.

We're currently tracking the consumption of all the main power uses in the house, pool pump, refrigerators, plus the listening room.

Don't use AC, and the lights and fan in the listening room are on a separate circuit.

No problem with the battery footprint.

Lots of golf carts on the island, so no problem with battery access and recycling.

Main goal is to reduce the overall electric cost of the house via net metering.

Dan

 

[MylesBAstor]

http://www.shunyata.com/Content/DTCD-whitepaper.html

 

[DonH50]

Systems that use transformers, chokes, coils, voltage stabilizers and AC "networks" represent the opposite end of the spectrum from DTCD in terms of engineering and philosophy.

I am pretty sure that includes every line-powered power supply in every piece of equipment on the planet...

 

[Nicholas Bedworth]

Regarding APC or solar power, etc., in either case, as others may have alluded to in various ways, the battery to sine-wave inverter is what drives the mains outlets, and in general, these aren't designed for purity of the waveform. Some are better than others, of course, but the phase noise is likely to be considerable. As DonHo mentioned, a 60 Hz amp that puts out, say, 1-5 kW, is a costly affair.

A more manageable strategy is to put a power conditioning box ahead of any power cord. At least what's going into the power cords will be considerably cleaned up. At their best, power conditioners get right of the "crud" in the soundfield that you hear and put up with, but are greatly relieved when it's gone. It can make digital sound a lot more like analog, that's for sure, and could benefit any system.

Shades of Enid Lumley, but she got this correctly as recently as, say, 1985. HP was fondly recalling this contribution of hers at RMAF last year, and how it was regarded as a bit eccentric at the time.

And there are also big isolation transformers (Richard Gray, etc.) that can help control some of the really gross stuff that happens from time to time.

 

[MylesBAstor]

Regarding APC or solar power, etc., in either case, as others may have alluded to in various ways, the battery to sine-wave inverter is what drives the mains outlets, and in general, these aren't designed for purity of the waveform. Some are better than others, of course, but the phase noise is likely to be considerable. As DonHo mentioned, a 60 Hz amp that puts out, say, 1-5 kW, is a costly affair.

A more manageable strategy is to put a power conditioning box ahead of any power cord. At least what's going into the power cords will be considerably cleaned up. At their best, power conditioners get right of the "crud" in the soundfield that you hear and put up with, but are greatly relieved when it's gone. It can make digital sound a lot more like analog, that's for sure, and could benefit any system.

Shades of Enid Lumley, but she got this correctly as recently as, say, 1985. HP was fondly recalling this contribution of hers at RMAF last year, and how it was regarded as a bit eccentric at the time.

And there are also big isolation transformers (Richard Gray, etc.) that can help control some of the really gross stuff that happens from time to time.

Well you gotta admit shining a flashlight on the Magnepan panels and claiming that it affected the sound was a bit far out! And I out of curiousity tried it along with a few friends. I remembe asking my firend do you really think she heard this and he replied, yes but what was she smoking at the time On the serious side, Enid's contributions to me were on the topics of chassis vibrations, ac line polarity and record cleaning fluids.

 

[FrantzM]

Nicholas

I will repeat it one last time..and please simply go to the APC web site... I have no interest whatsoever in APC. I simply know for a fact and a measured fact that Dpouble conversion UPS DO have amongst the cleanest AC one can get this side of a Telecom Grade UPS...

IOW THEY ARE DESIGNED FOR PURITY OF WAVEFORM. In telecom and data center that is a requirement. Phase Noise .. What do you mean by phase noise? What phase noise? They have, in some instances a close to perfect Power Factor( >.95) What they send back as noise to the AC, close to nothing ... Current and Voltage almost in perfect phase thus the almost unity power factor... So What else should I tell you ...
Concerning their cost an APC 3000 VA , capable of easily poweingr a lot of HTs out there with clean, sine wave with less than 5% of voltage regulation and less than 3% THD at FULL Power is less than $2500 dollars and it will by the way keep your system running in the case of a complete power outage for up to 5 mins , enough to turn your system down gracefully ... I remarked to DonH that it wasn't likely that a 1 KW would cost that much .. His reply

That $25k supply was a lab-grade beast and I am probably wrong about the rating but it's what I recall. It was essentially a custom job built for extreme precision and low noise that we used outside a screen room, with the power crossing the wall through triple-wall conduit. It was about the size of a 3' high audio rack. IIRC, regulation was 1% from 10% to 100% of rated load, and THD was really low, something like 0.1 - 0.5%. It used ferroresonant technology as well, used an analog oscillator and power amp (no switching), and had a series of filters to suppress anything up to about 10 GHz. It was essentially a 60 Hz oscillator with a 1 kW amp after it. This was not something any audiophile needs!

So there not something an audiophile would come across. I will by the way repeat hat the specs on the Lorain I had was very close to that and it used Ferroresonant technology. I measured its THD at 4 KW, the limit of my dummy load at .5 %.. Its specs at 150% Duty , which is above its rating of 10 KW was 3 % THD !! Designed in the old days for AT&T and several still in use in Central Offices around the country .. they were designed I repeat for purity of waveform ...

It could be that you have different opinions on the subject. That is ok.. What you presented in your last posts are that:Your opinions. They are not facts and cannot be proven or sustained.

 

[FrantzM]

Hi

Didn't see Myle's while posting .. I will admit to a really bizarre tweak that I practice in all my systems. It came from "Auntie" Enid as she was affectionately called.. AC polarity .. in your system does seem to make a difference .. Not something I have ever tested under controlled conditions but, do make sure that all your gear are at he same polarity ...


There goes my last shred of obectivist cred ..

She passed away last year.

 

[MylesBAstor]

Hi

Didn't see Myle's while posting .. I will admit to a really bizarre tweak that I practice in all my systems. It came from "Auntie" Enid as she was affectionately called.. AC polarity .. in your system does seem to make a difference .. Not something I have ever tested under controlled conditions but, do make sure that all your gear are at he same polarity ...


There goes my last shred of obectivist cred ..

She passed away last year.

The AC line polarity tweak is perhaps the cheapest improvement one can make to their system. One can take a trip to their local Home Depot, hardware store or whatever and pick up one of those three prong AC line checkers. for $5. You can never assume the electricians installed the AC receptacles correctly!!!

That said, then check the AC line polarity for each component, first by disconnecting the ICs between the gear and then either measuring the lowest ground potential using a DVM or something like the now discontinued Namiki checker. I've gotten equipment where the amps say needed to be flipped around or one of the two amps needed to be flipped. Jadis was famous for that. If need be, reverse the AC plug if wrong-but I hate cheaters since they degrade the sound eg. always add a grain and harshness to the sound.

Sorry to hear she passed. Last I heard, she was broke and living in a trailer in the desert

 

[FrantzM]

Myles about polarity is similar to my owns. I posted about this sometime ago, either in this thread or another about the need to bring if possible all your gear to the same polarity.. The procedure is correct

I don't think however that cheaters "degrade the sound and add grain and harshness" we are disagreeing there on the issue. I think that that the use of cheater is not recommended by the USA NEC (National Electrical Code).

 

[Nicholas Bedworth]

@ Myles Regarding the flashlight on the panel, well, perhaps Enid had a sense of humor? Shining a bright light on a panel could cerrtainly have a perceptual effect. Was this experiment done with eyes open or closed? She was ahead of her time...

@FrantzM... @ Myles For sure AC polarity is important, and of course one can make some amazing discoveries by checking the polarity of each wall outlet with the appropriate device. Not all electricians graduated in the top half of their class...

 

[microstrip]

I think that that the use of cheater is not recommended by the USA NEC (National Electrical Code).

Cheaters defeat the ground connection and should never be used in a domestic environment. Equipment with grounded plugs usually have metallic boxes and chassis to increase electrical safety as they are connected to the earth wire. If you remove this connection you can be putting someone's live in risk.

Permanent installations can have just one grounded piece of equipment and ground the other through the interconnects or external links (remember the Primare 200 series? ), but audiophile installations are intrinsically high mobility installations.

If you want to swap live an neutral in plugs you should do it properly or ask a technician to do it. The use of the cheater should be limited to checking the correct orientation.

Proper orientation of all the plugs minimizes the flow of leakage currents in power and signal cables and results in lower noise levels. However some very well insulated equipments are almost symmetrical in leakage!

 

[mep]

Funny that many manufacturers of high end gear recommend that the only piece of gear that should be plugged in with a 3 prong plug is the preamp and all other pieces of gear should have cheater plugs in order to prevent ground loops. When you connect the rest of your system to your preamp, everything becomes grounded through the ground shield on the interconnects to the preamp.