Power . How much do we need...

[LL21]

when i thought about amps for my 95db speakers (full range, 5ohm avg load)...i did all the math calcs of distance, volume, db, pressure, headroom. and i also thought about how large a future room might be and where i wanted to be...

...in the end for a 20-25' listening distance (my max)...today its 13'-16'...i ended up with about 100-150watts or so into 8ohms on the calculator.

Mids and magic are way more imporant, so i did think hard about SETs...Lamms in particular...but this was a 'last purchase' (as far as audiophiles go, anyway!) and i did not want to clip someday...and i play some pretty heavy electronic music and use my 2-channel for movies as well...and i watch pretty much all Action flix...so I currently have 160watts into 8ohms...or roughly 250watts into my speaker load...with enuf headroom to double all the down to 0.5ohms and double again on peak. somewhere over 4000watts. i know nothing about capacitance...but supposedly this is the amps ability to store energy for dynamics...this one carries about 340,000 microfarads which i believe is a lot for a dual mono.

Funny thing is, i play much softer now than i ever used to! i think the dynamic headroom and lower noisefloor make the music superbly satisfying at lower levels than i used to play. How funny!

 

[DaveyF]

Hi DaveyF,

Keep working at it!...i ran DD18 with the Gs for years, and it took a long time to get it right...partly because i did not know how to use the Velodyne as well as i do now. i suspect you can get rid of the frisson. if you can adjust the rolloff...do so. it may or may not help, but in my room, it did. i am sure you will find it rewarding to no end!

good luck!

Thanks LLoyd, that's a good suggestion. I will continue to "adjust" the settings and see if I can get the blend 'perfect'..Might take me months, but that's the name of the game I guess

 

[flez007]

I agree with Lloyd, give it a little more time, play first with positioning, that is crucial!..some recommend to place the sub in corners, but in my room it delivered a more integrated sound a little offset from the center and about 4 inches away from the back wall.

 

[DaveyF]

Thanks Fernando, I think the positioning is also crucial. So far I have the Sub towards the right rear corner and about 3" away from my Mondo Trap....seems to be ok, but I will move it around to see how it performs. Yesterday, i listened to the Burmester CD-03 CD.. ( If you want to really test your system, this is one helluva great Cd for that)...particularly the Yim Hok-Man track .. "Poem of Chinese Drums". I thought my walls would crack:roll eyes: Seriously tough track for any Sub or full range system for that matter. The T5 came through with flying colors, although I was a little worried that I might blow up something.

 

[RogerD]

Roger, I'm curious to know, when you wind it up this way can you go all the way to your maximum listening level without the character of the sound changing? Forgetting about rock for the moment, how would this go for an orchestral recording, say?

Frank

I have been watching football most of the day.

Frank and Frantz,

Since I use my Agtron mono blocks to drive my main satellites now the only thing I can say is....I will run out of guts before my amps do. I played the "Red Violin" soundtrack track # 20 IIRC and the sound was so dynamic and forceful it actually scared me.....because I didn't know what was coming next. The amps use two toridal transformers a piece so I think there is plenty of clean power. I rarely listen with the volume control past 9:30 and can't imagine going up to 11 o'clock on my system. The total wattage is about 4000 watts including a velodyne 18 sub and my stereo sub.

I sit about 12 feet from my satellites and the room is acually half my condo with includes a open dining area and kitchen. The whole space is about 16 x 46 feet I would guess.

My brother is much more sensitive to volume than I am because he asks me all the time....are you deaf? But I like to hit the sweet spot where my preamp kicks in which is about at 9:15 and I think I have excellent hearing and Gary is a light weight

The volume has really no impact on clarity, just the energy output....it's like my ex-porsche the faster it went the better it handled.

 

[fas42]

The volume has really no impact on clarity, just the energy output....it's like my ex-porsche the faster it went the better it handled.

Sounds :b mighty good, Roger ... !!

Frank

 

[RogerD]

Funny thing is that classical for me is the biggest issue, in the case of an operatic soprano hitting a big note and holding it. This is very close to having a test instrument generating a high power sine wave, the very thing they warn you on test disks not to run at high volume, and I have certainly heard the results: the sound starts cracking as the protection circuitry cuts in, and once or twice the amplifier module shut down completely, it was thermally overloading ...

Frank

Frank I listen to a lot of opera and if a amp was going to clip I would think it would be during a operatic duet. The best operatic crescendo's can be very emotional and with plenty of headroom in a good system these crescendo moments can be breath taking as in my system the music soars and actually sounds like it is bouncing of the ceiling.

 

[fas42]

The best operatic crescendo's can be very emotional and with plenty of headroom in a good system these crescendo moments can be breath taking as in my system the music soars and actually sounds like it is bouncing of the ceiling.

Sounds familiar. For me the note totally fills the space of the room, and my awareness; it actually makes me feel like my head is vibrating in synch with the singer's voice box. When you listen to the good voice of a real person singing in a small auditorium you get the same effect, it completely takes over the acoustic environment, you feel that the walls must be pulsating in unison ...

Frank

 

[mauidan]

As I have said in another post or thread ... At least 300 watts/ch regardless of speakers is what I consider satisfying both for my engineer mind and my musical soul...

Seems like your mind was already made up before you started this thread.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Seems like your mind was already made up before you started this thread.

Yes, the original post opened with "I'm on the side of there can never be enough," so yes, Frantz was clear about his own position from the beginning. He was ask for the opinions of others and has not, evidently, seen anything here to change his mind. I'm with him personally. I can't think of a single benefit to having "less power" except for the reduced cost. There is the opinion that low-powered amps sound better. As long as we take "better" as a purely subjective term in that context I won't argue, but I will disagree.

Tim

 

[FrantzM]

Hi

Most MAX SPL calculators suppose a nice, stable and constant resistive load which most speakers aren't... Better to err toward more power IMHO especially when very powerful amplifier are available and in many cases, great sounding units.
As for subwoofers, I consider these to be a requirement in an audio system. At least two, I prefer three and of course with suitable power ... It is one area where I am happy using Pro amps. And before people clamor , think about what kind of amps is used in your powered subs... likely a plate a amplifier or something very similar ... And that in almost ANY powered subs...
As for the case about Active speakers, I must say that I like the idea but am not entirely convinced and the old audiophile tendency to switch things around is still alive in me so ... I do however like the concept of multi-amplification and active crossover, preferably digital.. A discussion for another thread.
As stated by PP I have not yet seen any solid arguments toward less power in a system ..

 

[Whatmore]

There is a very good piece in the Sanders Sound Systems subforum on WBF

You will find that conventional, direct-radiator (not horn-loaded), magnetic speaker systems of around 90 dB sensitivity, typically require around 500 watts/channel to avoid clipping. More power is needed in larger rooms or if you like to play your music more loudly than most.

 

[kach22i]

Recently at a local stereo store the Krell rep gave a demonstration, and broke down how they get to "enough power". My memory is not so good, and my notes on this part are limited.

In essence the rep said based on sound track an explosion in a home theater system we get our max power demand. To meet this demand of a 1,024 watt peak you need at least a 900 watt Krell amp.

The power allocated to the center speaker is 1.5 times that of the front R&L mains. In theory, a speaker of similar design to the R&L is not up to the task, most center channel speakers and amps are inadequate.

The power allocated to the rear and sides if I recall correctly is 1/2 that of the main R&L speakers.

I should premise that the rep also discussed dynamic range of Blu-ray and DVD's verses old vinyl LP's. Based on these parameters the vinyl LP guys can get away with a fraction of the power required because of the limited sonic range of the medium.

I have not read this entire thread, just passing on what I heard. There might be a similar "sales pitch" on the Krell website which explains these claims better than I have, but I could not find it.

 

[mauidan]

I have not yet seen any solid arguments toward less power in a system ..

Understanding "usable power" - by Steve Deckert
http://www.decware.com/newsite/paper110.htm

 

[FrantzM]

Still haven't see any solid argument toward using less power

 

[Orb]

Still haven't see any solid argument toward using less power

Frantz,
what in your view is the ideal amount of power supply capacitance/energy reserve for a power amp and can it have a perception affect on a form of dynamics?
Not a test question as each person may have a different thought on this or experience.
Cheers
Orb

 

[microstrip]

Still haven't see any solid argument toward using less power

Formulated in this way you will never see any. . Tim wisely dropped the price factor in his PP and as soon as he did it this becomes a philosophical problem, not an engineering issue.

But in real world there are constrains. And many well known designers have referred reasons why a high power amplifier can sound worst than a lower power one. Should we debate them?

 

[Whatmore]

Formulated in this way you will never see any. . Tim wisely dropped the price factor in his PP and as soon as he did it this becomes a philosophical problem, not an engineering issue.

But in real world there are constrains. And many well known designers have referred reasons why a high power amplifier can sound worst than a lower power one. Should we debate them?

Perhaps it should read 'Still haven't see any solid argument toward using less power at a given price point'.

As for high powered amps sounding worse, isn't that really saying that badly designed amps sound worse?

So let's change the quote to: "for well designed amps, Still haven't see any solid argument toward using less power at a given price point'

 

[Orb]

Perhaps it should read 'Still haven't see any solid argument toward using less power at a given price point'.

As for high powered amps sounding worse, isn't that really saying that badly designed amps sound worse?

So let's change the quote to: "for well designed amps, Still haven't see any solid argument toward using less power at a given price point'

And again there are plenty of well designed amps with lower power supply capacitance/energy reserve and moderately high watts, and also many lower powered amps with high microfarads storage.
Cheers
Orb

 

[Whatmore]

Oh crickey, alright then how about: 'ceteris paribus, is there any reason not to have more power?'