Power Supply units!

[MylesBAstor]

Anyway, tecnically knowledge seems to me the name of the game in the thread subject.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

Well I haven't seen any of that yet. Pretty much your opinion in my opinion.

Why don't you ask/contact/do some research first on why designers like Jim White of Aesthetix, Vladamir at Lamm, Mark at Rogue Audio, Ken Stevens of Convergent Audio, Conrad Mas at AvidHiFi, Kevin Hayes at VAC, Jud Barber at Joule Electra, Luke Manley at VTL, Nelson Pass at Pass Audio, Kondo at Audio Note, Heike Becker at Audio Valve, the team at Audio Research, Chris Johnson and his team at Sonic Frontiers (when they were around), Arthur Loesch at Loesch Audio, Gilbert Yeung at Blue Circle Audio, Jeff Rowland at Rowland Research, Art Ferris at Audible Illusions, John Curls new Orion/Constellation Audio phono section, Sim Audio, Jadis, Boulder, Krell, Cary Audio, Cello, Mark Levinson, ASR, Zanden, BAT, First Sound, Audia Flight, Tube Research, etc. chose to use a separate outboard power supply with their phono sections/preamps rather than speculating? Even the POOGED Dynaco PAS3 used a robust power supply. There must be a reason why at the top end of most lines, the designers that opted for separate power supplies greatly outweighs by a significant margin, single chassis units? In fact, the only single box, top flight preamplifiers/phono sections that immediately come to mind are Wavestream, Burmester, MBL and conrad-johnson.

 

[Steve williams]

Raul

I want to make it perfectly clear that if a one box unit could ever be made that is sonically the same as my 4 box, I would buy it for sure. Not sure it could be done however (but then according to you I am sipping the Kool Aid)

 

[Gregadd]

I have never heard it but I did look at a detailed design and spec sheet some time ago. Rauls' own Essential 3160 uses an outboard power supply.

 

[Steve williams]

 

[silviajulieta]

Ahem! Raul Vladimirs line stage is a dual mono four box at $42k. From what I could hear worth every penny. A remote controled motorized volume conttrol and a little industrial art would make it just about perfect.

Dear Reginald: I'm not diminished in any way those 42K unit, the subject is not that. I can go in deep analyzing that design but is useless to the thread subject ( PS one box or separate. ) and could be non-comfortable for its owners.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

 

[silviajulieta]

Well I haven't seen any of that yet. Pretty much your opinion in my opinion.

Why don't you ask/contact/do some research first on why designers like Jim White of Aesthetix, Vladamir at Lamm, Mark at Rogue Audio, Ken Stevens of Convergent Audio, Conrad Mas at AvidHiFi, Kevin Hayes at VAC, Jud Barber at Joule Electra, Luke Manley at VTL, Nelson Pass at Pass Audio, Kondo at Audio Note, Heike Becker at Audio Valve, the team at Audio Research, Chris Johnson and his team at Sonic Frontiers (when they were around), Arthur Loesch at Loesch Audio, Gilbert Yeung at Blue Circle Audio, Jeff Rowland at Rowland Research, Art Ferris at Audible Illusions, John Curls new Orion/Constellation Audio phono section, Sim Audio, Jadis, Boulder, Krell, Cary Audio, Cello, Mark Levinson, ASR, Zanden, BAT, First Sound, Audia Flight, Tube Research, etc. chose to use a separate outboard power supply with their phono sections/preamps rather than speculating? Even the POOGED Dynaco PAS3 used a robust power supply. There must be a reason why at the top end of most lines, the designers that opted for separate power supplies greatly outweighs by a significant margin, single chassis units? In fact, the only single box, top flight preamplifiers/phono sections that immediately come to mind are Wavestream, Burmester, MBL and conrad-johnson.

Dear MylesBastor: You can add Halcro and Dartzeel to that one box designs.

Btw, I'm not speculating ( I only try to be " polite " about. ) , I don't need to talk with other designers and I know perfectly what I'm talking about. I know very well several of the phono/line stages designs you name it but Rogue, Audio Valve and Blue Circle and I don't mean that I only heard it but that I know its designs, advantages and trade-offs. I know Halcro, dartzeel, FM Acoustics and several other units.

Do you know why I take a lot of time on this long and learning research?, because I own, owned or heard it and between each one trade-offs I can't fulfill ( with one of those units ) the targets/priorities in my Phonolinepreamp " agenda ". I learn for each one approach and then decide to take the adventure to design my own Phonolinepreamp with the trade-offs that meet my main targets/priorities.

Yes my unit, like Gregadd point out and like I already posted, has an outboard PS. Could this means that the outboard PS in my design ( our design, I made it with another person. ) is an absolute necessity?, no it is not but like I posted I need too: credibility.

I already posted that we all ( including audio designers. ) are ( someway or the other ) " prisoners " of the AHEE and our behavior was/is heavy oriented by the AHEE rules: marketing oriented and not necessary a design necessity. The AHEE is no customer oriented any more, maybe never was.
So designers " follow " the non-write AHEE rules or " die ", what I say: follow the AHEE rules or even has almost no posibility of success. Of course that many audio manufacturers take " advantage " of that AHEE status and goes for big money with out give to the customer almost nothing additonal for that other that two or four boxes.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

 

[RBFC]

Myles' post above places the onus on the "one-boxers" to show that that design can perform as well. With market pressures being what they are (and have been at the high price points), if equivalent performance could be achieved in a single-box unit, I believe that the above-listed top designers would produce it. Why do we not run our power cords directly alongside our interconnects? Doesn't basic physics and electrical engineering explain this phenomenon quite clearly? How much of a stretch is it to believe that physically isolating power supplies from sensitive low-level circuitry is a good idea if possible? Why does audio performance of a CD or Blu-Ray player improve when you turn off the display? These effects are electrically measurable (for the objectivists out there) and I'll bet that the designers of multi-box units do so for more than just cache.

Unfortunately, discussion about audio gear at this level often degenerates into an ego battle. Whether it's ego based on ownership or ego based on loving to win debates, it is a process that poisons the friendships in a community such as this. Most everyone here has fairly well-set opinions about gear, and those who are looking to learn more can find answers to reasonable questions about same. Hardened owners of gear are sure to defend both their purchases and listening perceptions, so attempting to "convince and convert" another long-time audiophile is a futile endeavor. When undeniable scientific proof of something along with overwhelming subjective approval occurs, it is then that even the most hardened audiophiles take notice. After all, we are all interested in "what's best". There is a huge difference in how this type of change occurs vs. "one guy says this and another says that".

Since I come here for pleasure and relaxation from my work, I don't find much interest in engaging in gear discussions under these conditions. I believe that the music and movie sections, the software that truly drives this passion, are far more important and less conducive to silly argument.

I can go in deep analyzing that design but is useless to the thread subject ( PS one box or separate. ) and could be non-comfortable for its owners.

As illustrated by this statement, is it really of any use to belittle someone over the purchase of a certain piece of gear? If you aren't interested in that brand, concept, etc., then just participate elsewhere in the forum. There is nothing mature to be gained by attempting to ruin someone's pride of ownership or enjoyment of their system. The foundation of this forum is the love of music and art. I'd like to see this maintained.

Lee

 

[silviajulieta]

Dear Lee: ++++++++ " The foundation of this forum is the love of music and art. I'd like to see this maintained. " +++++++++++

I agree. I'm a music lover and that is what " move " me. Hardware is a necessity but not the end target. However understanding hardware IMHO does not makes any harm, in the other side even if many of us are " music lovers " each one of us have different targets and different point of view on how achieve those targets. All these means a learning process to acquire the right knowledge for we can improve our each one music home system enjoyment.

I already say that I agree with you and I can say too that IMHO a " plural " opinion forum does not goes against your statement. You can't enjoy music with out hardware and as better this hardware as better your own music enjoyment.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

 

[Gregadd]

I think that often good ideas become obsolete or unnecessary. A noisy transformer with stray magnetic fields may at one point been a nuisance. Rather than construct a complex solution to the problem, designers may have just decided to put it in a separate box. Custom dictates that the best designs have a separate power supply. Raul may have a point there. On the other hand. Along comes the toroidal transformer that eliminates a preponderance of the problems of the previous designs. That could make it perfectlly acceptable to make a one box design. It does however ignore that ARC Ref3 was a one box design. That did not seem to bother Steve at all. There is enough great one box designs like Allnic to make this almost a non-issue.
I remember there was a time no one would buy a sports car without a manual transmission. Today's technology suggests a manual transmission may actually be a handicap.

 

[The Smokester]

Greg, I think you nailed it.

 

[vinylphilemag]

There is enough great one box designs like Allnic to make this almost a non-issue.

True, although Allnic's upper phono stages (the H-1500 and the H-3000) do use an external PSU.

I remember there was a time no one would buy a sports car without a manual transmission. Today's technology suggests a manual transmission may actually be a handicap.

Never! No matter how good an automatic gearbox may become at actually changing gears, they can't do what a good driver can, which is read the road ahead and select the correct gear with their intentions in mind.

 

[RUR]

Never! No matter how good an automatic gearbox may become at actually changing gears, they can't do what a good driver can, which is read the road ahead and select the correct gear with their intentions in mind.

Don't think in terms of traditional "Stick it in drive and go" types of automatic transmissions, Rich. Think in terms of modern, dual-clutch 6 or 7 speeds with paddles. Fully controlled by the driver, they'll do anything a manual does - and faster. Ferrari, for example, will no longer sell cars with manual transmissions, IIRC.

and now back to power supplies......

 

[silviajulieta]

Dear friends: My position is not that I'm against " more boxes " but one in electronic audio design or against designers.

This is what John ask when he start this thread:

++++++ """ seperate power supplies for various components? Is this really necessary or just another marketing ploy to get us to part with dollars? " ++++++

my position is simple: it is not necessary ( could be under some especial technical conditions. ) and IMHO more an AHEE marketing oriented " advantage ".

IMHO the outboard power supply subject it is only other " myth " promoted by the AHEE like many other " myths " we already know: tubes better than SS units, MC cartridges the right way to go: MM? don't be ridicolous!!!, belt drive over direct drive TT, step up transformers over active gain phono stages, non removable headshell tonearms over removable headshell tonearms design, monobloks over stereo units, etc, etc. All the audio chain and every link in that chain is full of " myths " and we almost all follow those myths with out think if those myths ( even we don't know exist. ) are a reality or only a myth that we don't have to follow any more.

The advantage of a " free and democratic " audio forum is that we can expose/show and can analize them and learn about.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

 

[Gregadd]

Raul there are myths and there are facts. Everybody knows tubes are better than solid state and transformers are better than active phone stages What are you talking about?

 

[silviajulieta]

Raul there are myths and there are facts. Everybody knows tubes are better than solid state and transformers are better than active phone stages What are you talking about?

Dear Reginald: Good!!!!!

regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

 

[RBFC]

Can anyone prove that using a separate power supply degrades performance? Since I'm not an electrical engineer, I sure can't make that statement. So, if someone enjoys a product that has a one-box or multi-box approach, what's the problem? I don't believe that folks in either camp bought their component JUST because of the power supply location.

Perhaps the external power supplies are chosen when compromises in board layout, etc. would otherwise occur. Why not recruit a designer or two to offer interviews here? Or invite them to join and participate? Most of us are simply making guesses about this subject.

I'm sorry, but it still seems that we're picking at nits.

Lee

 

[MylesBAstor]

Can anyone prove that using a separate power supply degrades performance? Since I'm not an electrical engineer, I sure can't make that statement. So, if someone enjoys a product that has a one-box or multi-box approach, what's the problem? I don't believe that folks in either camp bought their component JUST because of the power supply location.

Perhaps the external power supplies are chosen when compromises in board layout, etc. would otherwise occur. Why not recruit a designer or two to offer interviews here? Or invite them to join and participate? Most of us are simply making guesses about this subject.

I'm sorry, but it still seems that we're picking at nits.

Lee

Years ago, one issue was getting a good umbilical to run between the two units.

I agree with your statement and was trying to say the same thing eg getting a designer to comment on the noise/layout/other issues that are minimized with a separate power supply. Certainly I've seen instances where one can't put the power supply close to the main unit w/o hum, noise, etc. We actually have a few here that are more than qualified to comment such as George Kaye, Roger Sanders, and Ralph Karsten (assuming he drops in here). I'd even like to see Vlad of Lamm comment since he prides himself on how his equipment measures as well as performs.

 

[mep]

I will throw another preamp designer into the mix that uses an outboard power supply and that would be Mike Elliott of Counterpoint fame. My SA-5.1 has an outboard PS and so does my SA-2 pre-preamp. I always thought it was a case of the designer going to the nth degree of tyring to remove any type of PS noise being injected into the signal path. The proof is in the listening and if your gear is quiet than I would't worry about it.

Ae for the other topic that has re-surfaced on this thread concerning people not willing to divuldge their real names, I have a problem with that. I think that most of us here use our real names and I see no reason not to do that. Some forums like the TP forum will not let you post unless you identify yourself in order to keep people from saying outlandish things while hiding their true identity. I have never tried to hide my identity or where I live from anyone-I have no need to do that. Plus, I guess it helps that I am not paranoid. I found that someone crying to have a thread closed because someone asked another member to come out of the closet and reveal themselves to be offensive.

Mark Pearson
Bloomfield, IN

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

I thought that was dealt with. I would prefer it not to resurface here again.

Respectfully,

John72953

 

[RBFC]

What we're seeing is various displays of childish and rude behavior. If the preamp is quiet, how can someone say that it is a bad design? How could it benefit someone to make the owner of a certain piece of gear (which that owner enjoys immensely) uncomfortable? I would agree that divulging one's real name should be required when critical comments are being posted. Without some way to ascertain an individual's background/credentials and intentions, it makes no sense to give any credence to comments that stray into the negative or superlative categories. Often, these comments are accompanied by slurs: Anyone knows that (insert name of company, designer, etc. here) is the only one to implement this circuitry in a (right/wrong) fashion, and is really out to (make money/provide value). Comments of an absolute nature should be backed up by some type of reference, not merely one poster's declaration.

I would love to see Vladimir Lamm, etc. offer some insight on the design decisions and how certain topologies bring about compromises, etc. in the final product.

Lee