Preamps... nothing is perfect.

[microstrip]

This looks very interesting. It kind of reminds me of my old Pass Aleph P. (...)

Curiously I also had the same thoughts! But since long I became distrustful of electronics that "sound like nothing" - not the case of the Aleph P. And any one can claim "done like nothing in the world before" if he does not reveal how it was done.

Although probably it is great value for money, I could not see any reason to try it in Madfloyd system in the links kindly provided by Ric Shultz.

 

[christoph]

Hi Ked

I think the AR ref 10 is fantastic, but for me personally, it does not work with 242 valves in the Lampi... Works great with the special 45s. So should I choose to maximize my digital chain, I will choose a pre that works well with my 242, like Aries cerat, while for a non Lampi user I might recommend the AR ref 10.

I would not say that the 242 do not work with ARC gear in general.

Goran brought his Ref 6 and Ref 75 to my place and the 242 worked wonderfully with those two

Sorry for OT

 

[bonzo75]

Hi Ked



I would not say that the 242 do not work with ARC gear in general.

Goran brought his Ref 6 and Ref 75 to my place and the 242 worked wonderfully with those two

Sorry for OT

Oh good to know

 

[KeithR]

And by the way, I think you're wrong about CJ being anything like my CAT. I think they changed their house sound some years ago.

Ian, after reading your posts for the past 5 years where most often you feel anything tubed is ultimately "colored", you are a SS guy first who likes to tinker with tubes on the fringe. Am I right? CJ will not ever be mistaken for a SS preamp and is definitely about nuance, texture, and the like. Maybe you can go visit Myles and hear his entire CJ system on Magicos? I've heard tubes quite a bit now on Magicos (most recently the A3 on Vac) - and Jadis is what I preferred most, but that's not going to be your sound at all.

Maybe you Boston guys should book a group trip to RMAF or Axpona to hear more stuff. You might be able to create your audition list much better.

Good luck!

 

[analog brother]

Damn you Micro and Lloyd. see what you have done, got me thinking about doing the GATs2 upgrade again. not sure I could live without my GAT for a month or so.

shane, you could always borrow my sonic frontiers sfl-2 if you decide to pimp your gat.

 

[MadFloyd]

Ian, after reading your posts for the past 5 years where most often you feel anything tubed is ultimately "colored", you are a SS guy first who likes to tinker with tubes on the fringe. Am I right? CJ will not ever be mistaken for a SS preamp and is definitely about nuance, texture, and the like. Maybe you can go visit Myles and hear his entire CJ system on Magicos? I've heard tubes quite a bit now on Magicos (most recently the A3 on Vac) - and Jadis is what I preferred most, but that's not going to be your sound at all.

Maybe you Boston guys should book a group trip to RMAF or Axpona to hear more stuff. You might be able to create your audition list much better.

Good luck!

Keith, please don't try to categorize me. I don't like the old style tube sound (euphonic midrange, syrupy bass, rolled of highs) and used to think that all tubes were colored (and I've made statements to that effect due to ignorance thinking everything sounded like EL34s). I do like the more *modern* tube sound - a sound that isn't bloated, has extension and isn't too soft in the extremes. I own tube amps and LOVE them - I've not heard anything more realistic. How does that make me a SS guy? My friend built a tube preamp that I really like. It's very detailed, extended and has lovely texture. Unfortunately it lacks bass and warmth and doesn't do well in my system or I'd have him build me one for $2500.

I absolutely LOVE Al M's system. He uses tube amps and a passive pre. I guess that's a hybrid.

I do have a preference for solid state when it comes to sources (DACs, phono stages etc).

I have attended RMAF 2 or 3 times and Axpona twice including last year when I heard Jadis and liked it very much.

I am not aware of any solid state amplifier I would like. I've never liked D'Agostino. I don't like Ypsilon, Soulution, Pass Labs for example. Most solid state sounds metallic and thin and not organic enough for my taste.

But in any case the purpose of this thread is not to choose a preamp for me, but to simply help me understand the differences between them so that I can hopefully narrow down my list. Plus it's fun (at least to me) to understand how each product sounds different. It's precisely why I love hi-fi so much.

 

[marty]

Ian, is there anyway to hear each of your contenders in your own system?

Last week I voted, for myself, for the VTL TL-7.5 Series III with my wallet. (The fact that I had already decided on the Siegfried IIs just made my preamp decision even easier.)

Good choice Ron!

 

[Ron Resnick]

Good choice Ron!

Thank you, Marty! Bea says “hi!”

 

[KeithR]

Keith, please don't try to categorize me.

I'm sorry, Ian - not trying to put you in a corner so to speak but it helps to narrow down your options knowing what sound you prefer (unlike most people who just recommend what they own). Your 4 options are such different sounds, its hard. I just know in the past you've gravitated more towards SS (and CAT is pretty dead neutral tube as you probably agree and the amps have SS gusto for harder to drive speakers).

One thing that is important is if you use SE or XLR cables to your CATs. IIRC, Dart doesn't work as well with balanced connections.

Anyways, I'll bow out now. Good luck in your search.

 

[caesar]

Hi MadFloyd,

Tough decision. The advice so far is on point. I think you will need to save up enough cash to possess at least 2 units, compare and sell off.

Sound-wise, here are some thoughts... As my baseline, I agree with Keith that CAT (with stock tubes) is dead on neutral... The CJ sound has gotten progressively modern, from ART to ACT to GAT, but is still more tubey/ euphonic than CAT. My CAT is a lot more clean than the CJ units I had, with the euphonic fat trimmed off by the butcher, leaving only the marbled meat.... Yet you find CAT euphonic, so you will definitely find CJ euphonic. Based on this, I wouldn't waste my time with CJ.

Yet if you move in the "tubey"direction, I think the multi-chasis Jadis models like jp80 and, better yet, jp 200 kill cj. Jadis is just not marketed as well these days.

Moving in the SS direction, I think of VTL as an SS preamp with tubes. It might be your cup of tea. But it probably wouldn't have same dynamics / drive as the SS Spectral.

Seems like the easiest next move is to get that Spectral unit from the local dealer into your system, and work from there.

Best of luck!

 

[MadFloyd]

Hi MadFloyd,

Tough decision. The advice so far is on point. I think you will need to save up enough cash to possess at least 2 units, compare and sell off.

Sound-wise, here are some thoughts... As my baseline, I agree with Keith that CAT (with stock tubes) is dead on neutral... The CJ sound has gotten progressively modern, from ART to ACT to GAT, but is still more tubey/ euphonic than CAT. My CAT is a lot more clean than the CJ units I had, with the euphonic fat trimmed off by the butcher, leaving only the marbled meat.... Yet you find CAT euphonic, so you will definitely find CJ euphonic. Based on this, I wouldn't waste my time with CJ.

Yet if you move in the "tubey"direction, I think the multi-chasis Jadis models like jp80 and, better yet, jp 200 kill cj. Jadis is just not marketed as well these days.

Moving in the SS direction, I think of VTL as an SS preamp with tubes. It might be your cup of tea. But it probably wouldn't have same dynamics / drive as the SS Spectral.

Seems like the easiest next move is to get that Spectral unit from the local dealer into your system, and work from there.

Best of luck!

Thanks for your thoughts! Didn't know you had a CAT preamp. I wouldn't have described mine as clean. It is meaty though - I loved that aspect of it. What CJ models did you have? What you're describing is not the impression I have from owners, reviewers, friends.

 

[caesar]

I went from latest CJ act generation to CAT black path. So I actually compared the older cj to cat directly on multiple amps... and CJ sounds much more euphonic than cat. This is a subjective hobby, and I like cat a lot better. and, of course cj has its fan boys also.

And a couple more things. First, sure, everyone likes their stuff. It's a journey, and folks found the experience they are crazy about (ARC, CAT, CJ, VTL, Magico, Wilson, etc.). In some cases the love affair lasts a long time, in some cases it's a few years until people get sick of a sound and want something better or different. It's a hobby, and there is nothing wrong with it.

Second, the terms people describe the gear like "real" and "natural" are meaningless. Take a review by Jon Valin and Art Dudley, strip out the brand names like Magico or Audio Note each one loves, and it's hard to tell each guy's writing apart. Inside their mind's imagination, it's all "real" and "natural". Audio terms only make sense in comparison to other gear. When reviewers don't do their job and compare, they are filthy, disgusting mother fukkers. Make you waste precious time, and , of course, hard earned money. While they got their gear for free so they can market it. No different than any fanboys , just promoting their favorite brand. So I think you are doing great job of looking past the enthusiasm of fanboys for relative differences to narrow down your search.

Good Luck!

 

[jazdoc]

Madfloyd -

You asked for alternatives, so here is one out of the box suggestion: consider a custom build. Based on prior posts, I suspect you may never find satisfaction with 'off the rack'. Several advantages including getting something built exactly to spec and potentially tailorable to your specific application and tastes. While the cost is likely higher than one of the units you are currently considering; consider the price in time, effort and ennui swapping gear rather than enjoying music. Additionally, in a sense you are co-designer and 'own' the sound. My $0.02.

 

[PeterA]

Madfloyd -

You asked for alternatives, so here is one out of the box suggestions: consider a custom build. Based on prior posts, I suspect you may never find satisfaction with 'off the rack'. Several advantages including getting something built exactly to spec and potentially tailorable to your specific application and tastes. While the cost is likely higher than one of the units you are currently considering; consider the price in time, effort and ennui swapping gear rather than enjoying music. Additionally, in a sense you are co-designer and 'own' the sound. My $0.02.

That is out of the box but interesting. What happens to value or price when tastes change and you want to sell? I think Ian kind of enjoys the time and effort he is putting into research and even swapping gear if he gets some alternatives in house to audition. I have been exposed to a lot of gear at Ian's house and I think we have both learned much in the process. Knowing that one can resell a component and not lose much money makes the process much more appealing, at least IMO.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

That is out of the box but interesting. What happens to value or price when tastes change and you want to sell? I think Ian kind of enjoys the time and effort he is putting into research and even swapping gear if he gets some alternatives in house to audition. I have been exposed to a lot of gear at Ian's house and I think we have both learned much in the process. Knowing that one can resell a component and not lose much money makes the process much more appealing, at least IMO.

Jazdoc has a custom preamp by Jeffrey Jackson that is pretty fine sounding, as well as being maybe the most elegant looking piece of electronics I've had the pleasure to enjoy.

 

[Kingsrule]

Towards the end HP always liked the Burmester pre best

 

[jazdoc]

That is out of the box but interesting. What happens to value or price when tastes change and you want to sell? I think Ian kind of enjoys the time and effort he is putting into research and even swapping gear if he gets some alternatives in house to audition. I have been exposed to a lot of gear at Ian's house and I think we have both learned much in the process. Knowing that one can resell a component and not lose much money makes the process much more appealing, at least IMO.

Peter - great observation and perhaps getting to the nub of the matter. I approach hi fi gear like a marriage; if you are contemplating divorce attorneys at the wedding reception, the marriage is unlikely to last. . My preferred holding period is forever. Not denigrating anyone's' approach, especially since I indirectly benefit from hearing a ton of cool gear at Mike L's.

 

[jazdoc]

Jazdoc has a custom preamp by Jeffrey Jackson that is pretty fine sounding, as well as being maybe the most elegant looking piece of electronics I've had the pleasure to enjoy.

View attachment 42274

Dude, you gotta take a listen after the volume control upgrade...wish I had that ZYX cartridge back!

 

[Tango]

View attachment 42274

WoW! I wish my my preamp has this awesome looking face. Can I just have him made the chassis to put internal organs of my preamp in. In gun metal color would be even more “cool.”

Kind regards,
Tang

 

[tdimler]

Interesting thread which I've enjoyed reading through. Your title is so apt, as it describes my hunt for a pre-amp to a tee. There are so many quirks which can disqualify pre-amps in one's particular system....no remote, poor remote implementation, no volume display, single ended only, can't drive a sub-woofer (ARC), not enough outputs, poor cosmetics....and the list goes on. And this is before even describing sonics! You have a great list and GAT 2 would be one I'd love to try but SE only is a deal killer for me.

I've been going direct from a Mytek Manhattan II into a Jeff Rowland 625 S2, and have been quite happy with the sound. I had a chance to try the newest version darTZeel pre for a couple weeks on loan from a friend who was out of town. I regard darTZeel as being at very top of audio design in every aspect. My hopes were very high. It is a beautiful piece of gear with everything done right. It did sound great, and was better than no pre-amp, but frankly I was not overwhelmed. In reality our aural memory is not that long so I'll just say it sounded very good and leave it there. Shortly after I also had use of a new Mark Levinson 523 from a friend and it was nice but not as good as the NHB-18NS.

That was several months ago, and I haven continued with my DAC direct setup and been very happy but still looking towards adding a pre. I've had my radar up on the Luxman C900-u. I've had the chance to have one in house for that last month or so and I think it is a very special piece of gear which has captured me in an unexpected way. Given my hopes for the darTZeel, I wasn't expecting a big change with the Luxman but I was wrong. Very big soundstage, superb instrument separation, prodigious bass, delicate extended highs, and the most gorgeous midrange. It is built like a tank with excellent cosmetics....and has as really good remote volume control implementation.

Sorry to muddy the waters of you list, but given my experience with the darTZeel, I think the Luxman C900-u is something worth looking into.