Preamps... nothing is perfect.

[LL21]

Interesting thread which I've enjoyed reading through. Your title is so apt, as it describes my hunt for a pre-amp to a tee. There are so many quirks which can disqualify pre-amps in one's particular system....no remote, poor remote implementation, no volume display, single ended only, can't drive a sub-woofer (ARC), not enough outputs, poor cosmetics....and the list goes on. And this is before even describing sonics! You have a great list and GAT 2 would be one I'd love to try but SE only is a deal killer for me.

I've been going direct from a Mytek Manhattan II into a Jeff Rowland 625 S2, and have been quite happy with the sound. I had a chance to try the newest version darTZeel pre for a couple weeks on loan from a friend who was out of town. I regard darTZeel as being at very top of audio design in every aspect. My hopes were very high. It is a beautiful piece of gear with everything done right. It did sound great, and was better than no pre-amp, but frankly I was not overwhelmed. In reality our aural memory is not that long so I'll just say it sounded very good and leave it there. Shortly after I also had use of a new Mark Levinson 523 from a friend and it was nice but not as good as the NHB-18NS.

That was several months ago, and I haven continued with my DAC direct setup and been very happy but still looking towards adding a pre. I've had my radar up on the Luxman C900-u. I've had the chance to have one in house for that last month or so and I think it is a very special piece of gear which has captured me in an unexpected way. Given my hopes for the darTZeel, I wasn't expecting a big change with the Luxman but I was wrong. Very big soundstage, superb instrument separation, prodigious bass, delicate extended highs, and the most gorgeous midrange. It is built like a tank with excellent cosmetics....and has as really good remote volume control implementation.

Sorry to muddy the waters of you list, but given my experience with the darTZeel, I think the Luxman C900-u is something worth looking into.

Great to read about the Luxman which i have read many good things about. Curious as to why SE only does not work for you? My amp is XLR only but an SE-XLR cable works well. Who knows...maybe i dont know what i am missing! However, very happy so just my two cents.

 

[marty]

Based on this, I wouldn't waste my time with CJ.

Moving in the SS direction, I think of VTL as an SS preamp with tubes. It might be your cup of tea. But it probably wouldn't have same dynamics / drive as the SS Spectral.

Respectfully disagree on both counts. The VTL 7.5 III is unmistakenly a tube preamp as the majority of the gain is from the tubes. (By the way, I wish that when folks refer to the sonics of a tube preamp, they would specificy the tubes being used since the character of sound changes dramatically with the choice of tube. Long plate Mullards sound very different than NOS Telefunkens, both of which are very different from the stock Ciftie's that come with the unit).

Both the CJ GAT and the VTL use a MOSFET output driver whose benefits, among many, provide a low output impedance with the concomitant balls to drive anything with aplomb. It is the low output impedance of the VTL that has allowed me to use it successfully with the Spectral DMA 400's as there are only a few preamps with a low output impedance that make this possibility feasible (BAT and CJ are two others). The VTL in particular has dynamics and drive that hardly takes a back seat to the Spectral DMC 30 SV. The choice there will have far more to do with one's sonic preferences than dynamics/drive.

I have heard the latest CJ GAT at Myles Astor's recently and it is a superb preamp. If you are comfortable with it's attributes (single ended only), it would be a mistake to dismiss it from consideration, especially since it is a relative bargain compared to many other units out there.

 

[MadFloyd]

Respectfully disagree on both counts. The VTL 7.5 III is unmistakenly a tube preamp as the majority of the gain is from the tubes. (By the way, I wish that when folks refer to the sonics of a tube preamp, they would specificy the tubes being used since the character of sound changes dramatically with the choice of tube. Long plate Mullards sound very different than NOS Telefunkens, both of which are very different from the stock Ciftie's that come with the unit).

Both the CJ GAT and the VTL use a MOSFET output driver whose benefits, among many, provide a low output impedance with the concomitant balls to drive anything with aplomb. It is the low output of the VTL that has allowed me to use it successfully with the Spectral DMA 400's as there are only a few preamp with a low output impedance that make this possibility feasible (BAT and CJ are two others). The VTL in particular has dynamics and drive that hardly takes a back seat to the Spectral DMC 30 SV. The choice there will have far more to do with one's sonic preferences than dynamics/drive.

I have heard the latest CJ GAT at Myles Astor's recently and it is a superb preamp. If you are comfortable with it's attributes (single ended only), it would be a mistake to dismiss it from consideration, especially since it is a relative bargain compared to many other units out there.

Thanks for chiming in, Marty.

I also learned a new word today, always fun.

 

[tdimler]

I also learned a new word today, always fun.

I had to look that one up too!

 

[LL21]

Respectfully disagree on both counts. The VTL 7.5 III is unmistakenly a tube preamp as the majority of the gain is from the tubes. (By the way, I wish that when folks refer to the sonics of a tube preamp, they would specificy the tubes being used since the character of sound changes dramatically with the choice of tube. Long plate Mullards sound very different than NOS Telefunkens, both of which are very different from the stock Ciftie's that come with the unit).

Both the CJ GAT and the VTL use a MOSFET output driver whose benefits, among many, provide a low output impedance with the concomitant balls to drive anything with aplomb. It is the low output of the VTL that has allowed me to use it successfully with the Spectral DMA 400's as there are only a few preamps with a low output impedance that make this possibility feasible (BAT and CJ are two others). The VTL in particular has dynamics and drive that hardly takes a back seat to the Spectral DMC 30 SV. The choice there will have far more to do with one's sonic preferences than dynamics/drive.

I have heard the latest CJ GAT at Myles Astor's recently and it is a superb preamp. If you are comfortable with it's attributes (single ended only), it would be a mistake to dismiss it from consideration, especially since it is a relative bargain compared to many other units out there.

Hi Marty,

Interesting to read your feedback. Thanks! Have not been following the latest in your adventures in audio...i will go try to find your system updates presumably somewhere here in WBF Land.

 

[MadFloyd]

I thought I would post an update. I recently had the opportunity to get a hold of a used darTZeel 18NS (series one) and took advantage of it. I've always wanted to hear this product as I've heard (and read) so much about it for several years but had no local dealers and no way to audition so I wouldn't buy new.

Out of the 4 preamps in my original post, it was one of the top two I was most interested in (the CJ GAT 2 being the other one).

I am extremely impressed. This preamp has a purity of sound that I haven't heard before. It does not sound like tubes (it doesn't have that additive texturing) but it doesn't sound 'electronic' like many solid state preamps do. It holds nothing back - information just flows through it and the dynamics and black background are outstanding. It really is so quiet. It thankfully mates very well with my CAT amps.

I happen to love the cosmetics and I think the design is very clever. I have a couple minor nitpicks (that I know have been addressed in the 2nd iteration) but I can live with them.

I'm still getting used to the sound (can't really put my finger on any 'house' sound just yet) and ultimately I'd still love to hear the GAT but I'm pretty happy right now.

 

[asiufy]

Congrats, Ian! It's been what, 2 years?, since I told you about darTZeel? Unfortunately back then you started by buying the one piece I told you NOT to buy

Enjoy, you have one of the great preamps out there, and far beyond the others in your list (IMHO)!

Wait until you Zeel up your CH phono...

cheers,
Alex

 

[Tango]

I thought I would post an update. I recently had the opportunity to get a hold of a used darTZeel 18NS (series one) and took advantage of it. I've always wanted to hear this product as I've heard (and read) so much about it for several years but had no local dealers and no way to audition so I wouldn't buy new.

Out of the 4 preamps in my original post, it was one of the top two I was most interested in (the CJ GAT 2 being the other one).

I am extremely impressed. This preamp has a purity of sound that I haven't heard before. It does not sound like tubes (it doesn't have that additive texturing) but it doesn't sound 'electronic' like many solid state preamps do. It holds nothing back - information just flows through it and the dynamics and black background are outstanding. It really is so quiet. It thankfully mates very well with my CAT amps.

I happen to love the cosmetics and I think the design is very clever. I have a couple minor nitpicks (that I know have been addressed in the 2nd iteration) but I can live with them.

I'm still getting used to the sound (can't really put my finger on any 'house' sound just yet) and ultimately I'd still love to hear the GAT but I'm pretty happy right now.

If you haven’t paid for it, it is best to listen for two weeks and look for what you don’t like in its sound. Listening impression can change quite a bit after getting used to new sound.

Kind regards,
Tang

 

[MadFloyd]

Congrats, Ian! It's been what, 2 years?, since I told you about darTZeel? Unfortunately back then you started by buying the one piece I told you NOT to buy

Enjoy, you have one of the great preamps out there, and far beyond the others in your list (IMHO)!

Wait until you Zeel up your CH phono...

cheers,
Alex

Thanks, Alex. I am in your debt. And it's a real bonus that my CH has the Zeel outputs - thanks for pointing that out!

 

[MadFloyd]

If you haven’t paid for it, it is best to listen for two weeks and look for what you don’t like in its sound. Listening impression can change quite a bit after getting used to new sound.

Kind regards,
Tang

Understood and agreed. It sometimes takes a while to learn the negatives of any component. Nothing is perfect. I'm still in the honeymoon phase. Hopefully anything I discover won't be something I can't live with...

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I thought I would post an update. I recently had the opportunity to get a hold of a used darTZeel 18NS (series one) and took advantage of it. I've always wanted to hear this product as I've heard (and read) so much about it for several years but had no local dealers and no way to audition so I wouldn't buy new.

Out of the 4 preamps in my original post, it was one of the top two I was most interested in (the CJ GAT 2 being the other one).

I am extremely impressed. This preamp has a purity of sound that I haven't heard before. It does not sound like tubes (it doesn't have that additive texturing) but it doesn't sound 'electronic' like many solid state preamps do. It holds nothing back - information just flows through it and the dynamics and black background are outstanding. It really is so quiet. It thankfully mates very well with my CAT amps.

I happen to love the cosmetics and I think the design is very clever. I have a couple minor nitpicks (that I know have been addressed in the 2nd iteration) but I can live with them.

I'm still getting used to the sound (can't really put my finger on any 'house' sound just yet) and ultimately I'd still love to hear the GAT but I'm pretty happy right now.

Congrats Ian on your acquisition. the dart pre is a great enabler of musical truth. the 'house' sound is getting out of the way of the music.

purity is a good word, I think of it as 'not limiting' to anything I throw at it. it never holds back or adds things.....yet has that deep musical view, tonal rightness, micro dynamic life and refinement to allow a lively natural view on the music.

enjoy!

 

[bonzo75]

Congrats. So please also let us know how the phono in it compares to your CH

 

[Alpinist]

I thought I would post an update. I recently had the opportunity to get a hold of a used darTZeel 18NS (series one) and took advantage of it. I've always wanted to hear this product as I've heard (and read) so much about it for several years but had no local dealers and no way to audition so I wouldn't buy new.

Out of the 4 preamps in my original post, it was one of the top two I was most interested in (the CJ GAT 2 being the other one).

I am extremely impressed. This preamp has a purity of sound that I haven't heard before. It does not sound like tubes (it doesn't have that additive texturing) but it doesn't sound 'electronic' like many solid state preamps do. It holds nothing back - information just flows through it and the dynamics and black background are outstanding. It really is so quiet. It thankfully mates very well with my CAT amps.

I happen to love the cosmetics and I think the design is very clever. I have a couple minor nitpicks (that I know have been addressed in the 2nd iteration) but I can live with them.

I'm still getting used to the sound (can't really put my finger on any 'house' sound just yet) and ultimately I'd still love to hear the GAT but I'm pretty happy right now.

Congrats Ian!!! Great choice. I assume you’re still running single-ended. Has to be one of the most transparent preamps on the market.

Enjoy,
Ken

 

[PeterA]

Congrats Ian!!! Great choice. I assume you’re still running single-ended. Has to be one of the most transparent preamps on the market.

Enjoy,
Ken

I haven't heard many preamps, but I did have the pleasure of hearing Ian's system yesterday, and I must say that the darTZeel sounds extremely good. It has more drive and dynamics than his passive preamp and is much more transparent than his last tube preamp. The system was really sounding great. Congratulations, Ian. You made a good choice. Perhaps we can compare the internal phono to the CH next time.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Congratulations, Ian! I am glad you arrived at a happy conclusion!

 

[DaveyF]

I haven't heard many preamps, but I did have the pleasure of hearing Ian's system yesterday, and I must say that the darTZeel sounds extremely good. It has more drive and dynamics than his passive preamp and is much more transparent than his last tube preamp. The system was really sounding great. Congratulations, Ian. You made a good choice. Perhaps we can compare the internal phono to the CH next time.

Hate to say it..but IF the Dart/CAT combo is a lot more transparent than the CAT Legend Black Path with the matching CAT amps, then something is wrong somewhere else in the system...IMO.

 

[KeithR]

Great to hear it’s a match with the big CATs!

Us Dart fans aren’t crazy

 

[Al M.]

Hate to say it..but IF the Dart/CAT combo is a lot more transparent than the CAT Legend Black Path with the matching CAT amps, then something is wrong somewhere else in the system...IMO.

Sorry, I don't understand what you mean.

 

[DaveyF]

Sorry, I don't understand what you mean.

Al, what I mean is that if the Top of the line CAT preamp sounds veiled or otherwise faulty when paired with the matching CAT amps, then something is wrong in the chain somewhere. Remember, Ken Stevens, the CAT designer, most surely designed his gear to be completely synergistic. If a preamp, and particularly a ss preamp can actually sound better in that pairing, this would indicate to me that there is something going on that is interfering with this synergy.
Having heard all of the CAT preamps, I can absolutely state that to my ears they are totally revealing (unless there is something faulty with the particular unit?)...and certainly not in any way less transparent than the best ss. ( yes, I have heard the Dart on Sevaral occasions). Since Peter A seemed to hear a loss of transparency with the prior CAT Legend, and since the OP has decided to go away from this preamp, ( yet likes the amps, which are actually in almost all other CAT users hierarchy, less capable than the preamp) -this leads me to my conclusion.

 

[bazelio]

I haven't heard many preamps, but I did have the pleasure of hearing Ian's system yesterday, and I must say that the darTZeel sounds extremely good. It has more drive and dynamics than his passive preamp and is much more transparent than his last tube preamp. The system was really sounding great. Congratulations, Ian. You made a good choice. Perhaps we can compare the internal phono to the CH next time.

Which passive preamp was it?