Question on power conditioning for amplifiers

[SysOp]

Hello all- Power question to pose. On my Theta Intrepid, and on my Genesis 6.1 mains (built in sub amps on each tower), the amps appear to already contain sufficient filtering and very large transformers. Given this, would it not be perfectly fine plugging them in directly to wall AC, or is there any benefit to running first through a filter / conditioner with it's own large transformer?

AC for the three amplifiers is a dedicated 20a circuit with a PS Audio receptacle.
One Theta Intrepid, 5x 100w
Two Genesis sub amps, 500w nominal 1000w peak

I'm at the point now where I am addressing power to ensure I have clean AC and low noise to gear. I presently have a TrippLite HT7300PC AVR which I have been using only because I've had it laying around for some time. All AC mains cables are audiophile quality to a reasonable degree.

 

[Steve Williams]

I would never plug an amplifier into a power conditioner

 

[RogerD]

I agree I would only use a good PC on a amplifier. I also use a cable snap ferrite on all my PC's with excellant results.

 

[amirm]

I plugged in our Mark Levinson 532H into a PS Audio Power re-generator by accident. I also then plugged in the DAC and USB bridge which was my main intention. We were all amazed at the improvement. Then I noticed the overload light blinking. That's when we realized the amp was plugged in also. We unplugged that and sadly, all the improvements went away. Seems like the only thing that liked it was the amp! We plugged the amp back in and the improvements were there again until the volumes would get high at which point, the performance would sharply drop. So power capacity is definitely an issue.

This is in a commercial space with three-phase power and such. So perhaps that has something to do with it.

Anyone else has similar gear and can try the experiment?

 

[JackD201]

I go straight into the wall also. Actually, in my case, into the floor.

 

[mullard88]

Hi SysOp,

I have been using power conditioning on my amps ever since MIT came out with their first generation power conditioning products. The improvement in my system was enough for another friend to also acquire a set of these after hearing my system.

I have stopped updating my power conditioners eversince acquiring the MIT Isolators for the front end equipment and MIT Stabilizers for the amps and subwoofers.

These work in most cases but the improvements are not the same across all equipment. There is still a lot of experimenting involved in the selection of power cords between the equipment and the power conditioners to arrive at the most preferred sonics. There are the variations of the quality of the power supplied by the electric company and the upstream equipment that requires specific power cords. An example would be the Lamm M 1.2 amps which may require either the Entec, or the Sensory Power, or an MIT AC 1 or AC 3 power cords depending on what line stage or preamp I am matching them to.

In my system, I think I am hopelessly addicted to the use of power conditioning and power cords for all the equipment I own except for the stock Audio Research SP 3 and the 47 lab equipment.

I think it is best for you to listen at the power conditioner(s) your dealer or friends who have the same equipment use to determine if the improvement or difference is worthwhile for you and to find out which brand of power conditioner(s) to acquire.

 

[naturephoto1]

I plug my power amps into my 2 modified (and discontinued) Exact Power EP15A Power re-generators which are each plugged into an Isolation transformer which each plug into a separate 20 amp line and outlet. Unlike Armin, I do not have power issues due to the size of my room and the power requirements. Into one of the modified EP15A power re-generators I plug in the following analog components: my 25 watt Class A First Watt M2 power amp (used for my efficient OMA New Yorker horn front mains), my modified Krell KAV-250a/3 power amp used for my Dahlquist DQ6 rear channel speakers (and only used for a 7.1 playback), my modified ARC LS10 Line stage, and my modified Sansui TU9900 tuner. Into my 2nd modified Exact Power EP15A power re-generators I plug in my remaining analog components: 3 modified Aragon Palladium 1K monoblock amps used for my Nola LCR Reference center channel and Nola Viper IIA side surround speakers, as well as my Teres Certus 450 turntable and my Soundsmith Strain Gauge 410 Phono preamp. I never use the Aragon Palladium monoblocks at the same time as the turntable (except for photos). All of my digital components (modified Onkyo 885 Pre/Pro, modified Denon 5910CI, modified Lavry DA10 DAC, and modified NuForce Edition Oppo 83SE Blu-ray player) plug into a separate Isotek Sigmas Power Conditioner. I plug my 2 18" subwoofer power amps into 2 separate 15 amp outlets.

Rich

 

[audioguy]

I use a Pure Power APS 1050 (http://www.purepoweraps.com/aps.htm) for all of my front end gear (and rear channel amps) and an APS 2000 for my three front speaker amps. I use no conditioners on my subs. The APS series are power re-generators and also have battery backup. If I play my main speakers (amps are Bryston 7B-ST's) and play it louder than I can stand, on occasion the indicator om the APS will show more than 100% use (meaning that it is providing more than the wall can provide). The reason that works is that the battery, for short bursts, will meet the need.

It is quite weird when all of the power in the house shuts down with one of our Atlanta storms but I can listen to music for at least 30 minutes running off the batteries !!!

 

[Bruce B]

We plug everything into an Equi=tech balanced wall cabinet. I wouldn't use anything smaller for amps.

 

[garylkoh]

The only power conditioner I would use for the built-in amps on the Genesis speakers is the IsoTek Titan. I have never found anything else that would not restrict the bass.

 

[SysOp]

Thank you all for the plethora of information- which I can deeply respect knowing you all have vastly more knowledge and well established / tuned systems than I.

Gary thanks as well for the specific note in regards to your 6.1 speakers (which I just love, btw, on a daily basis). I just picked up an almost-brand-new VansEvers conditioner which I will use for front end equipment and run my amps stright to wall for now- I'll also do a bit of experimenting to see what sounds best, and take a look into the mentioned conditioners. I do not like how the TrippLite sounds at all, btw- Everything sounds better without it.

...Ahh, the never ending quest for perfection...

Regards,
Kurt

 

[FrantzM]

Hi

My experiences and travails with power quality have led me to always consider POwer Conditionner. I am repeating myself for the new members to understand my position on the issue. I believe that feeding quality power to a system improve the overall performance of most systems. The paths to me are straightforward: I favor Dual conversion Data Center UPS to their, usually weaker and more xpansive audiophile cousins.
This out of the way, I think it is something that has come to be a myth not to connect an amp to a Power conditioner. Rather many favor the approach of "dedicated lines"/ Let me repat it .. Such dedicated lines are simply a branch taqken from the main Power line. These "dedicated" branch have breaker dedicated to them that is all... All the nasties that come from the main tree go find their merry ways into any branches, including the “dedicated" lines. Look at it this way. The Power Line that comes into your house is a tree from it comes out the branches. Each branch is a circuit with a breaker. What comes to the tree circulates in all the branches ..ALL.. The breaker has no filtering capacity. Now some branches are larger than others and likely will carry more stuff. So a bigger breaker gives you the potential of more power.. Say 20 Amps breaker tell you that this branch will carry up to 2400 watts (I know the unit should be VA but .. everyone got the drift here). In the meantime the branch cannot give yo more than the tree has available at any time .. So dedicated or not you are at the mercy of the other branches … AC, Water Heater, Lights, etc and most of these things feed back their electrical garbage to the tree, the main line.
Now comes a properly sized Power conditioner, one that is of sufficient power to feed the amp … up to the maximum draw possible for this amp and beyond. This Power Conditioner can at least filter the bad stuff, the EMI, RFI and other disturbances up to a certain extent (If voltage is sagging then you need more than a passive power conditioner); with a power conditioner of the proper size, that Is big enough to take, I repeat, the maximum draw of your amp or amps without flinching you are in business . The results are likely to be good. For example if you have a 50/ch watts Tube Class A amp it is likely that it will consume at most 600 watts… If it is fed by a 1000 watts PC all by itself.. One is likely to hear considerable improvement. Now it you put two of these amps n the same 1000 watts PC , you are asking for trouble. The PC will not keep up with the power demands of the amp and the reproduction will appear to be constrained as if the amps don’t have enough juice. Same would happen if you were to put an amp such as the Brsyton 28B on such PC or even one PC per amp.. It will not be enough for the Bryston.. They may turn it on all right but the rest is unlikely to be good …
Long post but the thing to keep in mind if one wants to use a PC on an amp is the maximum draw of the amp or amps together… Maximum draw under lowest load impedance not nominal power output. That require some thinking and planning but results in my experience are invariably better.. I will try to elaborate on another post.

 

[garylkoh]

Frantz,

I agree with some of your thoughts. I would add a couple of things - circuit breakers degrade over time, and changing them will make a big improvement. The type of circuit breakers you use also make quite a big difference. Having the PC large enough for the component is definitely the way to go....

Have you tried something like this on the other circuits?
http://isoteksystems.com/cgi-bin/products.pl?id=11

Plug it into the circuit that your AC, computer, microwave oven, etc. is on, and not the hifi circuit. PS Audio also has a product, but IMO this one works far better.

 

[SysOp]

Interesting thoughts for consideration- My power seems to be adequate, have all new copper wiring throughout the house (12 g), mostly via steel flex or hard conduit. 200a service panel and breakers are about 5yrs old. Single earth grounding rod for panel located about 3ft from panel, and ground is also bonded with house plumbing.

The regular current at the dedicated 20a outlet for the AV gear is 121v (at least per the TrippLite's AVR display). I have not seen the voltage sag or lights dim ever even when cranking the system / heavty bass transients. My largest concern is of course line noise, since I do have several AC-based automation systems for lighting etc (ZWave / Lutron etc), a lot of computers and other devices which use switching power supplies, and all of my home lighting is LED-based with frequency dimmers. I'm sure it is just a "noise party" on the AC lines in my house. Plus, I'm in an older neighborhood so my "AC sharing" is taking place with a lot of close proximity neighbors (Benedict Canyon area, if anyone is familiar with it).

Gary does that Isotek wall wart really work to shunt line noise?? I always looked at those things as snake oil.

 

[garylkoh]

Yes, I think that the Isotek one really works.... but you need more than one. I plug one into the second outlet of a parallel duplex on the microwave oven, one on the kitchen computer, one on the clock radio, etc. etc. then I don't need the Sigmas or the Titan. But once you get up to so many wall warts, you might as well have a better PC.

 

[SysOp]

Yes, I think that the Isotek one really works.... but you need more than one. I plug one into the second outlet of a parallel duplex on the microwave oven, one on the kitchen computer, one on the clock radio, etc. etc. then I don't need the Sigmas or the Titan. But once you get up to so many wall warts, you might as well have a better PC.

Good info- So considering that all of my lighting circuits are filled with LED bulbs throughout the house (no incandescents or CFLs anywhere), there is no way to wall wart those (or the zwave / lutron controllers) - I guess a good PC located at the AV gear wall outlet would be the only viable solution.

 

[LenWhite]

Kurt,

You may be interested in reading the June 2011 posts on Mike Lavigne's Audiogon equipment page http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?vaslt&1036349020&&&&&st2050. I've decided to install a 60A balanced isolation transformer (Torus) in a linen closet that shares the left side wall with my listening room. After consulting with Arthur Kelm and Mike Lavigne I'm convinced as long as the balanced isolation transformer is sized adequately over your total audio system power requirements, there won't be any power constricting of your amps or anything else. Although I've not heard an audio system totally using a balanced isolation transformer, based on what audiophiles like Mike and others have stated, I'm also convinced using a balanced isolation transformer will significantly improve the sound.

 

[Bruce B]

Kurt,

You may be interested in reading the June 2011 posts on Mike Lavigne's Audiogon equipment page http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?vaslt&1036349020&&&&&st2050. I've decided to install a 60A balanced isolation transformer (Torus) in a linen closet that shares the left side wall with my listening room. After consulting with Arthur Kelm and Mike Lavigne I'm convinced as long as the balanced isolation transformer is sized adequately over your total audio system power requirements, there won't be any power constricting of your amps or anything else. Although I've not heard an audio system totally using a balanced isolation transformer, based on what audiophiles like Mike and others have stated, I'm also convinced using a balanced isolation transformer will significantly improve the sound.

We're using a 7.5WQ Equi=tech wall cabinet for our whole studio. I doubt you'll have any problems with the Torus.

 

[SysOp]

Len / Bruce- Thanks for sharing guys, will check it out.

 

[LenWhite]

We're using a 7.5WQ Equi=tech wall cabinet for our whole studio. I doubt you'll have any problems with the Torus.

Bruce, have you found using additional power conditioning products such as a power distributor with EMI/RFI filtering useful with the Equi=tech? I'm currently using the Isoclean 80A3 and a Quantum QX4 with my source equipment. My amp is currently plugged straight into a dedicated circuit.