Quiet gear vs. dark backgrounds, and the "space between the notes"
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not to de-rail the thread too much, but at the top of the tt food chain pitch stability should not be a problem. speed stable direct-drive has continuous speed and enough torque to overcome groove modulation. most anacdotal experience by the CD proponents in the past where those 'myths' were sourced did not have exposure to SOTA tt's. these days most 'better' tt's have pretty good speed stability. the 3 vintage tt's i have owned, the Technics SP-10 Mk2, SP-10 Mk3, and Garrard 301, are all quite good on speed stability and accuracy. of course; these 3 tt's were always known for that virtue.
the pro audio guys from SF in my session had never been exposed to a high end tt before; which is likely typical.
Mike-I agree. The only turntable I ever owned that had speed/pitch stability problems was a Thorens. It was belt driven and had a speed servo that was always hunting for the right speed and could never find it. The damn thing drove me nuts so I replaced it.
my system is optimized for both digital and analog. my digital player, the Playback Designs MPS-5 is considered among the top level digital players. i've always strived to have the best possible digital player. i own 4000 CDs, 1000 SACD's and have a music server with 2000 hirez files. it's as good as digital gets. but.....my tt's sound better. as far as Nojima Plays Listz, it's a RR analog recording from 1988. so, in this case, the CD is sourced from the analog tapes. it's a great sounding CD.
no.
the environment was identical for both digital and vinyl. my visitors were there to audition the digital player. yes; my tt's are pretty. my description is about the reaction of my visitors to their reference being destroyed. the vinyl portrayed a much more life like rendition of how a piano should sound. bigger, bolder, more viceral, more powerful. the change in what was possible from a piano recording was overwhelming to my visitors based on their previously held high opinion of their own digital recordings.....and how it completely exposed those views as wrong.
i have likely thousands of examples of how digital and vinyl compare and i've listened to them for many years on a daily basis in a system designed to reveal every nuance of those differences.
i'm not sure what you refer to by a 'PCM digital reproduction chain'. maybe it's something akin to the Meridian system where everything stays in PCM into the active speakers. personally; i do not care for what i hear with that approach....and in my system the Playback Designs MPS-5 outputs into single ended BNC analog cables into my darTZeel preamp. i consider it the optimal interface for the best possible digital performance. so yes; i think analog is best as much as possible.
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Going all digital from the recording ADC to the reproduction DAC. What do you think is wrong with digital? Since you compared thousands of vinyls and cds (really?), can you sum up this huge experience in simple words for those who like me will never compare thousands of vinyls and cds with the best available gear? B.T.W, what percentage of those vinyls were produced only with analog equipment?
I think digital is good enough as much as possible for normal people, music lovers and sane audiophiles on a budget. I think that spending a fortune on a turntable is useless for those who don't already own a good collection of vinyls from the pre-digital era. I think that digital is much better at reproducing "spaces between the notes" than any turntable, because of the surface noise of vinyls. I can trust you about this "bigger, bolder, more viceral, more powerful" qualities of a good match between some vinyls and some turtables, but if I had a strong desire to hear my collection of vinyls with the best gear, I would use a laser turntable or I would scan the grooves...
A respected sound engineer recently showed me a new mixing room; at first a digital board was used, but it was replaced by an all analog board, automated with motorized faders and silent analog relays. When I asked why, the answer was: "it didn't work". His records are released in digital format, and I don't know if they are released on vinyl.
There's enough room for both "best analog" and "best digital".
Digital is good enough for "normal" people and "sane" audiophiles? So does that mean people who prefer LPs aren't normal and are insane? You should have thought about this post a little more before you hit the reply button. You come across like a bowl of sour grapes. Your post speaks volumes about your mindset.
$50K for a room, huh? Are you thinking of constructing a nuclear bunker? What specifically are you looking to do with this room and how quiet do you think it needs to be?
The trouble is, I have. It actually comes down to how well the weaknesses in the setup have been addressed, and this varies a great deal. I have heard quite cheap CD sound superb, and extremely expensive TT sound very ordinary, even atrocious. Quite specifically, a piano concerto where the piano sound was to put it bluntly, bloody awful! And this was on the system of a vinyl fanatic, who could only say the word, "CD", through clenched teeth ...
So I am sure a top notch recording of piano will sound sublime on well sorted analogue. I am equally sure a CD will sound as glorious in conveying piano tone on a system fully optimised, because I for one have heard it ...
Frank
Without starting another vinyl / digital flame war (and keeping this thread on topic), can folks provide a fair minded assessment of this statement?
Bruce B
WBF Founding Member, Pro Audio Production Member
We spent over $300 sq/ft for our rooms. They are configured as rooms with-in rooms. Everything floats and is decoupled from the outer shell. Though this includes electrical and finish work, I'd say the $50k mark will only get you to a STC rating of 55-60
Curious, Mike, what you felt was wrong with the sound here. I have only heard older models, and I was not impressed ...
Frank
As Bruce chimed in, it is indeed quite expensive to do this right. We had estimates of $20K just to model and design our HVAC ducts for our theater!!! Our showroom theater has easily cost that much to build and that is with us cutting some corners (including the aforementioned duct design
).
You're an incredible challenge to an old man's memory!!!
The recordings -- Mostly commercial work I had produced; radio spots, jingles, soundtracks. A couple of the jingles were full band pieces, the soundtrack work was acoustic -- guitars, bass, small percussion. The "band" stuff was recorded at home on my Teac. Lofi, not because of the quality of the deck, but due to the skills of the engineer (me).
The amps -- Jay had some Macs and some Crowns. The Crowns were in use most of the time.
The speakers -- Of course he had some small desktop monitors, though I don't remember what they were, but most of the mixing and mastering was done through some big midfield monitors. In the time I worked in his studio (all through the 80s) he remodeled once and switched, I believe, from JBLs to Westlakes, but I don't remember what was there when we did this.
Tim
As Bruce chimed in, it is indeed quite expensive to do this right. We had estimates of $20K just to model and design our HVAC ducts for our theater!!! Our showroom theater has easily cost that much to build and that is with us cutting some corners (including the aforementioned duct design
Amir,
Check out products like this:
http://www.quietflex.com/
I spec'd similar stuff to go in my dedicated listening room (architect plans drawn, not built yet). It reduces the sound transmission incredibly well. You form it into a few "S" curves ( or loops, if you have the wall/ceiling space ) to isolate the sound of the blowers from the room. Relatively inexpensive and easy to work with, since you can adjust the position easily before final installation (no re-cutting of solid ductwork).
Lee
similar cost per foot for my room, also a room within a room mostly although i have some windows. but as i live out in the boonies on 4 acres, with my room in a separate building from my home, i don't really have much problem with keeping noise out of my room or about noise from my room. it's more about the engineering into the structure of the room and then the built-in diffusion where the dollars are put.
i think Merdian makes nice gear. their digital players are right up there. my first high end gear was a Meridian 500 transport and 563 dac back in 1994.
where i have a problem is the philosphy where everything becomes PCM for music; and you have these quite expensive active speakers with 'just ok' active amplifiers. and no matter what you do everything is PCM. i've listened to a 6 figure all Meridian system here locally at Definitive Audio a number of times and the sound was flat and somewhat lifeless....etched....and lacking body. it's beautiful stuff......not my cup of tea. i consider it Home Theatre only gear.
Meridian digital and preamps used with conventional analog amps are definitely high performance.
I presume you mean the look of it was pretty good eye candy ...
When people use the word "etched" it means that the sound is about 95% there for a digital setup -- a bit more sorting out needed. Sounds similar to how the older units came across ...
The trouble with digital is if you don't go the extra yards at the end of development of the product, or tweaking a setup, that's the sort of sound you frequently end up with ...
Frank
I know about flex pipe Lee
. Alas, you can't rely on them for proper design. If you want the ductwork to be absolutely quiet with uniform heating of the occupants, then you need to do the fluid dynamics analysis costing what I mentioned. The piping is only part of the solution. Venting is super important too.As Bruce chimed in, it is indeed quite expensive to do this right. We had estimates of $20K just to model and design our HVAC ducts for our theater!!! Our showroom theater has easily cost that much to build and that is with us cutting some corners (including the aforementioned duct design
I knew it! When I popped in to check out the main home theater room, I kept thinking the HVAC ducts was holding the room back
I'm kidding of course. Incredible sound and in my opinion, even more spectacular picture. It's the best projector system I've seen yet.
Thank goodness we only have to deal with cooling and not heating as well. I got away with vents spec'd 1.5 longer than normal and ducting 35% larger for low velocity. Being underground helps a lot too with both heat and ST concerns (in or out). No trucks or trains anywhere near our house. Then there's cost of labor. An ~50k room over there is 30k over here HVAC included, a shave under 20k without it. The downside of being half a world away is the cost of equipment. Taxes and freight add up pretty quickly.
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