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[thedudeabides]

Thank you. Makes sense. I'll give a try.

 

[caesar]

Hi Dude,
Congrats!!!

If you got some extra sheckels left over, I can't strongly recommend the Zanden acoustic panels for your room issues. These are game changers in the fact that they are the only acoustic product on the market today that will not deaded the room (unless you double up or triple -layer them).

They will take out the bass bloat and at the same time tame the liveliness of the room. Fukking magical! A rare product in this hobby that completely dominates it's competition on all criteria and a rare acoustical product that doesn't make things worse. See if you can borrow some from a Zanden dealer. All the best!

 

[Lagonda]

Hi Dude,
Congrats!!!

If you got some extra sheckels left over, I can't strongly recommend the Zanden acoustic panels for your room issues. These are game changers in the fact that they are the only acoustic product on the market today that will not deaded the room (unless you double up or triple -layer them).

They will take out the bass bloat and at the same time tame the liveliness of the room. Fukking magical! A rare product in this hobby that completely dominates it's competition on all criteria and a rare acoustical product that doesn't make things worse. See if you can borrow some from a Zanden dealer. All the best!

So you went with Zanden instead of SMT ?

 

[caesar]

I like both... SMT is wood or plastic, so if a room is lively, it can accentuate the spiritedness of the presentation... but the delay in waves reaching the listener is a great benefit of SMT...Zanden and SMT work together like hand in glove

 

[thedudeabides]

Thanks to you all for your recommendations. I'm really adverse to any room treatments in general but I will look into the Zanden panels. Living room is my listening space and I have a great view of the forest through my windows behind the speakers and don't want to screw that up. Will pursue other options to resolve the issue and if things don't work out, I can always sell the 121's and reinstall the Joseph Audio Pulsars.

 

[caesar]

Thanks to you all for your recommendations. I'm really adverse to any room treatments in general but I will look into the Zanden panels. Living room is my listening space and I have a great view of the forest through my windows behind the speakers and don't want to screw that up. Will pursue other options to resolve the issue and if things don't work out, I can always sell the 121's and reinstall the Joseph Audio Pulsars.

Gothcha on the previous experiences with room treatments... I agree most deaden the room and take the life out of the music.

But Zandens are a different technology.... a complete game changer from the insulation material everyone uses. These panels only take the nasties out , improve the bass and overall (musical) transparency due to less masking of the sound. Even non-MBL fans who judge the brand based on a lack of the audiophile "pin point imaging", will be surprised how much imaging is improved (for the relevant recordings) because more direct sound reaches the listener and there is less smearing.

Also, they are small and can be ported. So you can get your view back within 2 minutes after you put them in your closet.

Definitely worth an audition.

 

[Lagonda]

Gothcha on the previous experiences with room treatments... I agree most deaden the room and take the life out of the music.

But Zandens are a different technology.... a complete game changer from the insulation material everyone uses. These panels only take the nasties out , improve the bass and overall (musical) transparency due to less masking of the sound. Even non-MBL fans who judge the brand based on a lack of the audiophile "pin point imaging", will be surprised how much imaging is improved (for the relevant recordings) because more direct sound reaches the listener and there is less smearing.

Also, they are small and can be ported. So you can get your view back within 2 minutes after you put them in your closet.

Definitely worth an audition.

Could you post a picture with the panels in your system Caesar, how do you apply them together with your SMT panels !

 

[caesar]

Could you post a picture with the panels in your system Caesar, how do you apply them together with your SMT panels !

Hi Lagonda,

I don't do pictures, but this should give you an idea... the first picture below is a short wall setup showing the positioning of 15 SMT Panels with MBL speakers... the second picture below shows Zanden panels on the front wall, in a configuration that usually works well for Zanden setups.

I also find the Zanden panels covering the front wall (behind the speakers) very effective, as in the second picture, and covering the SMT panels (works well together that way).

And I also like to add Zanden panels in the first reflection points, also covering the SMT panels.

Similar concept in a long wall setups.

I hope this gives you an idea.
Cheers!

 

[Lagonda]

Thanks ! So you are hanging Zanden panels on top of SMT panels ? That seems counter intuitive ! What is the difference compared to just SMT panels alone ? To bad you don't do pictures, there is not a good picture of these things to be found anywhere, almost like Bigfoot or a UFO, blurry distant picture only. Maybe they just don't photograph well !

 

[caesar]

Thanks ! So you are hanging Zanden panels on top of SMT panels ? That seems counter intuitive ! What is the difference compared to just SMT panels alone ? To bad you don't do pictures, there is not a good picture of these things to be found anywhere, almost like Bigfoot or a UFO, blurry distant picture only. Maybe they just don't photograph well !

Yes, I installed the Zanden panels over the SMT units on the front wall and in the first reflection points, and it actually enhances each other's virtues. SMTs are incredible. They have some absorption, but really add the sense of instruments in 3D space via temporal diffusion. They unveil the 3D effects of the performance and bring the acoustic of the original recording to the listening room, allowing the listener to follow the individual lines of each performer (if desired).

Zanden panels are room treatments extraordinaire. I used to have real traps and gik insulation-stuffed in the corners. If one doesn't overdo it with gik and real traps, and only keep them corners/ soffits, they take care of the bass fine. But with Zanden, there are no ill effects of room treatments that people usually complain about - they don't deaden the room and they don't suck out the life of the music at all. What one gets with them additionally is much, much better bass solidity and articulation, much more musical transparency (due to the elimination of bass waves that mask the musical details of other frequencies), better dynamics, more realistic tonality, and even more pronounced illusion of individual instruments better separated in space

 

[Lagonda]

Yes, I installed the Zanden panels over the SMT units on the front wall and in the first reflection points, and it actually enhances each other's virtues. SMTs are incredible. They have some absorption, but really add the sense of instruments in 3D space via temporal diffusion. They unveil the 3D effects of the performance and bring the acoustic of the original recording to the listening room, allowing the listener to follow the individual lines of each performer (if desired).

Zanden panels are room treatments extraordinaire. I used to have real traps and gik insulation-stuffed in the corners. If one doesn't overdo it with gik and real traps, and only keep them corners/ soffits, they take care of the bass fine. But with Zanden, there are no ill effects of room treatments that people usually complain about - they don't deaden the room and they don't suck out the life of the music at all. What one gets with them additionally is much, much better bass solidity and articulation, much more musical transparency (due to the elimination of bass waves that mask the musical details of other frequencies), better dynamics, more realistic tonality, and even more pronounced illusion of individual instruments better separated in space

Zanden panels seems to be primarily absorbers, they should cancel out most of the diffusion from the SMT panels. Interesting !

 

[caesar]

Zanden panels seems to be primarily absorbers, they should cancel out most of the diffusion from the SMT panels. Interesting !

No, they are not your typical absorbers. When I tried placing real traps and gik panels anywhere outside the corners, they do as you surmise.

But the Japanese wizards have discovered something very different and something truly spectacular.

 

[thedudeabides]

Thank you all for the support but given limited options for speaker placement, I couldn't get the 121's to perform as I know they can. A bit bummed but I had to try and am going to sell. No visible marks or scratches. Willing to work with a serious buyer. PM if interested.

 

[MrC.]

Thank you all for the support but given limited options for speaker placement, I couldn't get the 121's to perform as I know they can. A bit bummed but I had to try and am going to sell. No visible marks or scratches. Willing to work with a serious buyer. PM if interested.

Sorry to hear. If you tried port plugs the 121s would functionally become the top halves of 111’s which I own. Because the cutoff would be higher with the ports plugged a subwoofer that reaches a bit higher, and has an adjustable cutoff, like the Vincent Gallo subs, would probably integrate well with them and as they are sealed units may do better for you on the room node front. These subs are cheap and readily available and it may be worth a shot before you sell the kit.

 

[MrC.]

Sorry to hear. If you tried port plugs the 121s would functionally become the top halves of 111’s which I own. Because the cutoff would be higher with the ports plugged a subwoofer that reaches a bit higher, and has an adjustable cutoff, like the Vincent Gallo subs, would probably integrate well with them and as they are sealed units may do better for you on the room node front. These subs are cheap and readily available and it may be worth a shot before you sell the kit.

To get good integration I would look at getting two of his subs and position them next to or behind the stands. Given the frequencies they will operate at, they can be pointed ahead or sideways without any likely degradation of the sound. Good luck!

 

[gfroman]

Sorry you had no luck with the MBL's.

A few tweaks I did on dialing in my MBL101E speakers.
Instead of using the factory supplied spikes or trying expensive aftermarket footers, I completely removed the entire factory footer assemble (spikes and brass coupling), and place speakers directly to my Symposium Ultra platforms.
I also pulled the speakers out further from front wall to 52" (center tweeter), no toe-in.
Results were firmer bass and great vocal center imaging.
Minor adjustments will also be a lot easier since the Symposium platforms slide easily on the carpet.

Biggest improvement was of course adding the REL212SE subwoofer!

 

[Lagonda]

Mine are 52" from the front wall. Have you tried without the absorbers behind the speakers, they like diffusers, or bare wall in that position ?

Sorry you had no luck with the MBL's.

A few tweaks I did on dialing in my MBL101E speakers.
Instead of using the factory supplied spikes or trying expensive aftermarket footers, I completely removed the entire factory footer assemble (spikes and brass coupling), and place speakers directly to my Symposium Ultra platforms.
I also pulled the speakers out further from front wall to 52" (center tweeter), no toe-in.
Results were firmer bass and great vocal center imaging.
Minor adjustments will also be a lot easier since the Symposium platforms slide easily on the carpet.

Biggest improvement was of course adding the REL212SE subwoofer!

 

[gfroman]

52" seems like the magic dimension from the front wall, Lagonda.
The Stillpoint Apertures really act more like diffusers.
They replaced my old GIK thick absorption panels.
Room is way too reflective to use nothing.
Thanks!