RMAF 2013: Gear worth making the trip to Denver to hear... And not!

[KeithR]

And I’m not talking about little nuances in sound, here. I'm talking more about the big picture, the higher “sense of life" things, a la Peggy Noonan or Maureen Dowd. Coming back to the systems under discussion here, I don't think a 160 watt per channel tube system driving Alexia's can have real sounding bass, especially without subwoofers. That’s reality, not a show setup issue. Although the dishy system sounded good, it was good in an audiophile way, but not in a real way. I guess everyone has their "creative sovereignty". What each individual does with their little voice that's talking to them and motivating them in their head is their own business. Unfortunately, there was nothing particularly unique or visionary about that system, unlike what Dr. Von schweikert is trying to do or what was attempted by the bigger Wilson system.

I will concur that Wilson bass has recently left me wanting- the Maxx3s despite their size, surprisingly don't have great bass. I heard the Alexias at Newport but really didn't judge the bass on ARC Ref 250s.

However, your comments seems to neglect the midrange--which is probably the hardest to get right, and certainly can be judged in a hotel room more often than not. this leaves me wondering what you listen for, caesar.

 

[LL21]

...That said, there's obviously some things that my electrostats do that even the Alexias (and other speakers price be damned), simply just don't touch. The stats just get another level of resolution, microdynamics, sense of space and transparency that I don't hear in but a few speakers.

which speakers are those? always interested in knowing your thoughts on this bit, since you are a big electrostatic fan.

 

[slowGEEZR]

For everyone that went over to the Hyatt to listen to the Wilson demo, those were the transfers that I made last week at Dave's house.

Bruce, that was the most impressive and realistic sounding system I have yet heard. When they played the military band track, it was so real sounding that I almost teared up. I couldn't speak for a moment or two after the track ended. Excellent recording! Thank you!

 

[MadFloyd]

With the alexia and superb source material I think it could have been a lot better. Although I consider alexia a super- middleweight, I have heard it sound like a light heavyweight and occasionally like a cruiser weight, with subs. IMHO, just about any musical tube gear such as cj, vac, arc, bat, etc. (not VTL, unfortunately) could have created a similar sound. There was nothing remarkable about that room, per se. If Doshi is an up and coming designer he should strive to better the status quo. Sure he appealed to many audiophiles, and if that's his target market, it's great. But to me that's unremarkable. Changing the way people view something fundamentally is usually a primal calling, and unfortunately Doshi did not even attempt to be different. Sure his gear could replace that of the current generation of designers when they die off (unless they sell, like ARC), but right now it's just another brand of soup on the grocery store shelf.

I wasn't at this year's RMAF, but have been the prior two years and have some experience with Doshi as compared to some other brands including CJ & ARC.

A couple years ago while auditioning various preamps, I found that piano didn't sound natural on ARC (Ref5) or CJ (GAT). It sounded nice, but not 'real' to me, especially as compared to some solid state preamps. The piano sound to my ears was light and fluffy with no real weight, no real 'ivory' sound. I then auditioned Doshi and found it very realistic. I'm using piano as an example but it extends to other instruments as well. Of course this is just my opinion, but I thought I'd throw it out there because I for one am very glad that Doshi exists.

Also, I'm not quite sure I understand why you think a designer has to do something vastly different. Do you mean each brand should have a distinct signature sound - as in more color and less transparency? I think many of us want a product to be as transparent as possible without losing the soul of the music.

 

[mep]

Coming back to the systems under discussion here, I don't think a 160 watt per channel tube system driving Alexia's can have real sounding bass, especially without subwoofers.That’s reality, not a show setup issue.

Please define "real sounding bass." What instrument's bass are you talking about? The Lou Reed "Take a Walk on the Wide Side" cut opens with a bass guitar line that sounded every inch like a bass guitar on the Paragon/Doshi system. The bass was clean, tight, and as deep as bass pretty much gets on a standard electric bass guitar. I heard the same song on the ARC system over the Vandersteen 7 speakers and when the bass started something was rattling and it wasn't the room. And by the way, you don't "crack" a bass drum unless you are talking about a marching band beating a bass drum with a mallet and even then I wouldn't call that "cracking" a bass drum. Semantics maybe...

Although the dishy system sounded good, it was good in an audiophile way, but not in a real way. I guess everyone has their "creative sovereignty". What each individual does with their little voice that's talking to them and motivating them in their head is their own business. Unfortunately, there was nothing particularly unique or visionary about that system, unlike what Dr. Von schweikert is trying to do or what was attempted by the bigger Wilson system.

No stereo system sounds totally real, we just aren't there yet. Some systems come closer than others to achieving that elusive goal. You keep comparing the sound of the XLF system with a pair of Thor subs ($250k) in a room that was at least 4 times the size of the Paragon/Doshi room playing a pair of Wilson Alexia speakers that cost $39k. Of course the scale is going to be much bigger with the big Wilson speakers, but that's hardly Nick's fault. It's almost like you have an agenda against Doshi. As for the VS room, I spent considerable time in that room both during the show and at an after-hours party. I for one did not think that system sounded anywhere near as good as it did in March at Axpona in Chicago. I think it was too much speaker and too little room, but that's just my guess. I think the sound that Paragon/Doshi pulled off in their smaller room was great.

With the alexia and superb source material I think it could have been a lot better. Although I consider alexia a super- middleweight, I have heard it sound like a light heavyweight and occasionally like a cruiser weight, with subs. IMHO, just about any musical tube gear such as cj, vac, arc, bat, etc. (not VTL, unfortunately) could have created a similar sound. There was nothing remarkable about that room, per se. If Doshi is an up and coming designer he should strive to better the status quo. Sure he appealed to many audiophiles, and if that's his target market, it's great. But to me that's unremarkable. Changing the way people view something fundamentally is usually a primal calling, and unfortunately Doshi did not even attempt to be different. Sure his gear could replace that of the current generation of designers when they die off (unless they sell, like ARC), but right now it's just another brand of soup on the grocery store shelf.

Again, one has to wonder what your agenda is vis-à-vis Nick Doshi. For an electrical engineer who is relatively new to bringing high-end vacuum tube products to the high-end community which consists of audiophiles that you accuse him of appealing to (Who else should/could he appeal to? Who outside of the audiophile community is buying vacuum tube preamps, power amps, and tape stages?), Nick Doshi has already earned an enviable reputation as a very good designer of vacuum tube electronics. With regards to being a visionary, why don't you wait and judge him after he has been in business for 15-20 years like the people you are trying to compare him with now have been (and some much, much longer)? With regards to being different, how different can you be when you are manufacturing vacuum tube gear? Having said that, does CJ, ARC, BAT, VAC, or VTL have a vacuum tube preamp for tape decks on the market?

I'm going to say this one more time: You are coming across as someone who has an agenda against Nick Doshi and are making many unfair/unkind statements in my opinion. Saying he could replace the current generation of designers "when they die off" and that he is "just another brand of soup on the grocery store shelf" are just uncalled for remarks. Something is certainly up with you and the trash-talking you have employed against Nick, I just don't know what your agenda is. I do know it's not cool though.

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

i heard your G5 at one of the newport shows in a relatively small room and thought they sounded great. it didnt hurt having burmester and oracle as partners with none other than Jacques Riendeau spinning vinyl and anne bison singing acapella with the system.

I'm sure it didn't hurt to look at Anne either, and Jacques is a very approachable and personable guy. As far as the G5's are concerned.....I loved them.

 

[Bruce B]

Bruce, that was the most impressive and realistic sounding system I have yet heard. When they played the military band track, it was so real sounding that I almost teared up. I couldn't speak for a moment or two after the track ended. Excellent recording! Thank you!

After one of the demo's, the conductor of that piece, Lowell Graham, came up to me and thanking me for transporting him back to that moment. The highest accolades I could get!

 

[mep]

Bruce-You obviously did an outstanding job of transferring Dave Wilson's 30ips recordings made on his Ultra Master Studer deck to DSD. Everyone who heard them was moved in some way. I also think it's telling that Dave Wilson elected to have you transfer his tapes to DSD instead of PCM. I'm going to go out on a limb and say he was looking for the closest fidelity to the master tape that he could get. You should be honored that Dave chose you for this project.

 

[LL21]

A couple years ago while auditioning various preamps, I found that piano didn't sound natural on ARC (Ref5) or CJ (GAT). It sounded nice, but not 'real' to me, especially as compared to some solid state preamps. The piano sound to my ears was light and fluffy with no real weight, no real 'ivory' sound. I then auditioned Doshi and found it very realistic. I'm using piano as an example but it extends to other instruments as well. Of course this is just my opinion, but I thought I'd throw it out there because I for one am very glad that Doshi exists.

I hear that...I have heard Shindo which i am told has a similar appeal as Doshi...and I think if that is true...then I know exactly what you are talking about in terms of WEIGHT of piano...the keyboard, the wood, the strike and its power within the body of the instrument...I studied piano for 12 years (was very very bad)...but I do remember that weight.

I think I made your observation regarding the ACT 2. Fortunately, I am happy with the CJ GAT...but it has taken me a painstaking number of iterations to get my system to deliver that weight...it came from many places (such as my Zanden), and perhaps it might even be from having a bit too much here, but a bit too little there...to get the final sound right.

Fortunately, after a long time of getting it right and just simply sitting back and enjoying...I decided 3 weeks ago to put just 1 set of Ultra 5s under my power conditioner because of the stunning clarity it delivered...and I lost the 'piano weight'...suddenly piano sounded a touch like really good electronic keyboard...and it drove me CRAZY!!! (Mainly because the Ultra 5s do so many things RIGHT...I just hated giving up the detail but I also hated that I lost this critical weight in my system.)

Finally after a TON of work...involving putting HRS nimbus couplers on top of each Ultra 5, and pseudo-scientific methods of moving the ultra 5s centimetre by centime underneath the various components, I finally got all the clarity of the Ultra 5s...AND the weight of the piano back the way I used to hear it when I practiced. (This was just last nite, by the way, so a timely post on your part, MadFloyd.)

(now I admit...I cannot say for sure that the piano recording is supposed to have that weight in there...but frankly, I hear it now on most of my piano recordings, and I am happy...no more apprehension when I put a CD in...I know its got the tonal purity and balance I like.) But it took some doing!!!

Again, coming back to Doshi, I would love to hear it...having heard Shindo which I am told has a similar appeal...I can certainly understand the appeal. Plus, you've got the monos. Enjoy!!

 

[Bruce B]

Bruce-You obviously did an outstanding job of transferring Dave Wilson's 30ips recordings made on his Ultra Master Studer deck to DSD. Everyone who heard them was moved in some way. I also think it's telling that Dave Wilson elected to have you transfer his tapes to DSD instead of PCM. I'm going to go out on a limb and say he was looking for the closest fidelity to the master tape that he could get. You should be honored that Dave chose you for this project.

Thank-you Mark.. A couple of years ago we did all the Peter McGrath (Audiofon) transfers and I guess Peter told Dave. We did the transfer/mastering for the Wilson Audiophile label using 5 different converters. Peter and Dave blindly picked the DSD transfers as the ones that were the closest to tape.

Again, coming back to Doshi, I would love to hear it...having heard Shindo which I am told has a similar appeal...I can certainly understand the appeal. Plus, you've got the monos. Enjoy!!

If I didn't have so much invested in Pass Labs, I'd have a complete Doshi system.

 

[MylesBAstor]

I hear that...as a happy owner of the CJ GAT...and someone who studied piano for 12 years...piano weight is hugely important to me. I think I made your observation regarding the ACT 2...but due to my system (Zanden front end), I think I am ok with the CJ GAT. That said, it still has taken me a painstaking number of iterations to get my system to deliver that weight...it came from many places, and perhaps it might have been a bit too much here, plus a bit too little there...to get the final sound right.

But after a long time of getting it right...I decided to put just 1 set of Ultra 5s under my power conditioner because of the stunning clarity it delivered...and I lost the 'piano weight'...suddenly piano sounded a touch like really good electronic keyboard...and it drove me CRAZY!!! (Mainly because the Ultra 5s do so many things RIGHT...I just hated giving up the detail but I also hated that I lost this critical weight in my system.)

Finally after a TON of work...involving putting HRS nimbus couplers on top of each Ultra 5, and pseudo-scientific methods of moving the ultra 5s centimetre by centime underneath the various components, I finally got all the clarity of the Ultra 5s...AND the weight of the piano back the way I used to hear it when I practiced. (This was just last nite, by the way, so a timely post on your part, MadFloyd.)

(now I admit...I cannot say for sure that the piano recording is supposed to have that weight in there...but frankly, I hear it now on most of my piano recordings, and I am happy...no more apprehension when I put a CD in...I know its got the tonal purity and balance I like.) But it took some doing!!!

I would love to hear the Doshi...having heard Shindo which I am told has a similar appeal...I can certainly understand the appeal of Doshi

I don't think anyone has totally heard what the GAT can offer until it sits on a Silent Running Audio VR Isobase. In no way, shape or form was I prepared for the increased dynamics, transparency or resolution. As far as piano goes, I don't find Moravec's Bosendorfer lacking in any major way.

 

[LL21]

I don't think anyone has totally heard what the GAT can offer until it sits on a Silent Running Audio VR Isobase. In no way, shape or form was I prepared for the increased dynamics, transparency or resolution. As far as piano goes, I don't find Moravec's Bosendorfer lacking in any major way.

I can imagine...unfortunately, don't have a source for those here. I have mine on 7 HRS Nimbus Couplers + HRS M3 Isolation (with 2 HRS DPX II dampers & 1 Artesania damper on top)...and it has CHANGED dramatically for the better. I also use EAT tube dampers and PAD Dominus PC.

 

[MylesBAstor]

I can imagine...unfortunately, don't have a source for those here. I have mine on 7 HRS Nimbus Couplers + HRS M3 Isolation (with 2 HRS DPX II dampers & 1 Artesania damper on top)...and it has CHANGED dramatically for the better. I also use EAT tube dampers and PAD Dominus PC.

Yes the magnitude of the improvements don't seem to make sense given there's only two tubes (and isolated) in the unit. Other things are obviously afoot here.

 

[LL21]

I don't think anyone has totally heard what the GAT can offer until it sits on a Silent Running Audio VR Isobase. In no way, shape or form was I prepared for the increased dynamics, transparency or resolution. As far as piano goes, I don't find Moravec's Bosendorfer lacking in any major way.

BTW, I have Moravec's Chopin Nocturnes and they are mesmerizingly good...

 

[Elliot G.]

Eliot,
Seems like we have this discussion every few months. Yes setup matters. Cables matter. Electricity matters. Demagnetizing your system matters. Even Little metal balls on the walls matter, a bit..... But what I think matters more is the sound you get used to. Let me quote Winston Churchill: " “First we shape our buildings, then they shape us.” But we shape our musical experiences and then they shape our references...

Unfortunately, I have visited Many dealers who told me they had great systems. But when I listened to them, it was just blaahh. Sure I was able to figure out the sonic signature of the gear to determine if I liked that sound, but the systems were not super. Not super to me, that is, but apparently great to them.

Not too long ago, our own fearless leader, Steve Williams along with a highly esteemed WBF member, Marty, took a flight to hear the then new Aida and Wilson XLF. Apparently, the dealer had an awful room. So although they did not find musical bliss, they got a pretty good sense of the silk dome tweeter and the "newer" sonus faber sound.

The reality is that if a system has a realism trigger that moves your emotions, the system does not need to be set up perfectly. I don’t think anyone is rich or crazy enough just to buy based on a single show or dealer audition. If something peaks the interest, people listen several times, perform multiple auditions, read up on reviews and seek opinions of others. If something is God Awful, it’s just too bad. Seeking perfection will leave us all just seeking all the time....

And I’m not talking about little nuances in sound, here. I'm talking more about the big picture, the higher “sense of life" things, a la Peggy Noonan or Maureen Dowd. Coming back to the systems under discussion here, I don't think a 160 watt per channel tube system driving Alexia's can have real sounding bass, especially without subwoofers. That’s reality, not a show setup issue. Although the dishy system sounded good, it was good in an audiophile way, but not in a real way. I guess everyone has their "creative sovereignty". What each individual does with their little voice that's talking to them and motivating them in their head is their own business. Unfortunately, there was nothing particularly unique or visionary about that system, unlike what Dr. Von schweikert is trying to do or what was attempted by the bigger Wilson system.


With the alexia and superb source material I think it could have been a lot better. Although I consider alexia a super- middleweight, I have heard it sound like a light heavyweight and occasionally like a cruiser weight, with subs. IMHO, just about any musical tube gear such as cj, vac, arc, bat, etc. (not VTL, unfortunately) could have created a similar sound. There was nothing remarkable about that room, per se. If Doshi is an up and coming designer he should strive to better the status quo. Sure he appealed to many audiophiles, and if that's his target market, it's great. But to me that's unremarkable. Changing the way people view something fundamentally is usually a primal calling, and unfortunately Doshi did not even attempt to be different. Sure his gear could replace that of the current generation of designers when they die off (unless they sell, like ARC), but right now it's just another brand of soup on the grocery store shelf.

Now I realize that Myles, Steve, MEP, and others LOVED the system. And if they were moved, that's truly wonderful. So again, let's keep the Shakespeare quote - from non other than "As you like it" - in mind: “Oh! how bitter a thing it is to look into happiness through another man's eyes.”

if the writers on these pages took a view that this is just a touch of what the gear is capable of rather than ripping the crap out of the products I might be able to agree with you. If you read just this one thread there are those that say that the Scaena was "magical" and then it was crap four posts later. There are those that say the Alexia's were killer and then they weren't. The blah blah room was amazing and then it wasn't. This is just in my opinion funny. I have done shows, been to too many and been a retail dealer for over 40 years. I have worked and founded Audio Den on LI, worked for a long time at Lyric Hi Fi in NYC ( considered at the time I was there as the best HE store in the world), opened and run Front Row Center in Florida for 20 years and now at Audio Advisors in Palm Beach. In that time I have been to many many manufacturers factories, listening rooms and homes. I have installed and set up too many systems to remember, I have listened to the systems of quite a few reviewers and I could go on for ever.
I have never and I repeat never ever heard any system at a show that could come close to a properly set up system in someone's listening room. Having said that this is a very small number of people that have taken the time and effort to make it work. Its not about just spending insane dollars because some of these were reasonably priced gear.
Set up and a proper environment is IMHO the MOST important factor in getting a great musical experience,

My best and latest example
As Steve knows I was never really sold on the Wilson speakers until a few months ago I had the opportunity to go to the transparent facilities outside Portland Maine.I have known Karen and Jack and Brad who works for them for many years. I know what they had and what they used however I was not expecting to hear what I heard. It was one of the most moving experiences I have had in my life. I expected great sound when I was in the TAS HP listening circle and Harry has at many time blown me away. This was very unexpected what happened and Transparent. I have been told numerous times about how great someone's system was only to be terribly disappointed. I want to explain here that I am not talking about an opinion of whether this was better then that blah blah blah but rather did the system sound good, coherent, fast , live open and generally make me forget if even for a second that I was listening to one.
I believe there is a lot of great stuff being made today!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! There are many talented people working really hard to achieve these goals and the ones that have done the work, invested in a good listening space and lastly in good gear get great results.
My point is the same at a show all you can get is a mediocre taste of whats possible.
Take that and use that as a starting point not a point to make ABSOLUTE judgements.
The overwhelming majority of audiophiles now WAY more than me and tell me that every day.
There system is amazing and the BEST in the world
Only they know what is good and they have to validate their purchase by quoting others opinions BUT only when it validates theirs
This is not a competitive activity in my mind. I love music, all kinds of music,and if your system can move me, involve me and make me feel something then I am thrilled.
The rest of this is BULLSHIT

Warmest Regards
E

 

[LL21]

Yes the magnitude of the improvements [of isolation on the CJ GAT] don't seem to make sense given there's only two tubes (and isolated) in the unit. Other things are obviously afoot here.

...not to mention the fact that the CJ ACT 2 was not nearly as sensitive to vibration when I had it...perhaps I was the one who was not nearly as 'in tuned' to the benefits of really good isolation at the time. In any event, I am happy now...so I can finally sit back and enjoy the music once again...but this time with far greater clarity and understanding of subtle musical cues and nuances. !

 

[Steve williams]

If I didn't have so much invested in Pass Labs, I'd have a complete Doshi system

I would as well

 

[MylesBAstor]

I wasn't at this year's RMAF, but have been the prior two years and have some experience with Doshi as compared to some other brands including CJ & ARC.

A couple years ago while auditioning various preamps, I found that piano didn't sound natural on ARC (Ref5) or CJ (GAT). It sounded nice, but not 'real' to me, especially as compared to some solid state preamps. The piano sound to my ears was light and fluffy with no real weight, no real 'ivory' sound. I then auditioned Doshi and found it very realistic. I'm using piano as an example but it extends to other instruments as well. Of course this is just my opinion, but I thought I'd throw it out there because I for one am very glad that Doshi exists.

Also, I'm not quite sure I understand why you think a designer has to do something vastly different. Do you mean each brand should have a distinct signature sound - as in more color and less transparency? I think many of us want a product to be as transparent as possible without losing the soul of the music.

How many hours did the GAT have under its belt? Those Teflon caps need at least 300 hrs before the unit blossoms.

 

[MadFloyd]

If I didn't have so much invested in Pass Labs, I'd have a complete Doshi system.

Funny, maybe it's just because of your Pass gear and mastering needs, but always had you pegged as a solid state guy. I would have guessed you'd be more inclined to go the D'Agostino route if you were to upgrade...

 

[MadFloyd]

How many hours did the GAT have under its belt? Those Teflon caps need at least 300 hrs before the unit blossoms.

Can't be sure - it was lent to me by a dealer so I assume it was broken in. It was a beautiful unit in so many ways and certainly one of the top preamps I've heard (I don't want to sound like I didn't appreciate it). At the time I was auditioning preamps I had the hybrid Lamms amps. Maybe there just wasn't synergy there.

Or maybe it was just me.