RMAF 2013: Gear worth making the trip to Denver to hear... And not!

[Steve williams]

It's not picking on Nola at all. JTinn was accused of doing it with his MMMicro One speakers as well as other dealers there that weekend who used a plethora of Transparent Opus. I liked the sound of Nola. Just play it with a cable commensurate with the system

 

[microstrip]

I will agree with you about the foundation thing with bass. The bass is more important than most audiophile systems let on or strive to incorporate.

And we should not forget that most of bass comes from the room and positioning, and adequate bass acoustic treatments are either expensive or need large volumes. It is great when you have a room that behaves like a great bass trap at the proper frequencies ...

 

[Priaptor]

It's not picking on Nola at all. JTinn was accused of doing it with his MMMicro One speakers as well as other dealers there that weekend who used a plethora of Transparent Opus. I liked the sound of Nola. Just play it with a cable commensurate with the system

I agree. I think I looked at your post regarding his KO which is a 10K speaker. But whether it is his 10K speaker or his 35K MetroGrand, on the surface at least and from a "marketing" standpoint 40K worth of Odin cables does seem outrageous. However, the only point I make is that Carl, now that I have come to know him over the years, truly uses what he thinks is best with HIS speakers and if that is Odins and a "cheap" ARC amp, he will do it.

On the opposite end of the spectrum you raise, is the fact that he is showing his flagship 200K speakers with a $9,000 amp??? Is that equally sacrilegious? Many question the choice (despite never having hear it), BUT, he believes (and now that I have the Concert Grands in my possession, albeit only for a very short time and not yet optimized so no definite "opinion" I can yet make) I can see his point.

 

[microstrip]

(...)
Personally, in the Doshi room, instead of spending $12k on a cartridge, I would have spent $4 k instead on the cartridge and spent the other $8k on 2 subwoofers. What would it have hurt to try it? I know I'm in a minority of not adoring the dishi alexia room, but I believe a lot of audiophiles do not put enough of a priority on getting the bass right. I hope that the Wilson XLF demo is a big step in our hobby to start shattering those limiting beliefs by of what is possible. I realize that living conditions don't always allow the right bass. And a lot of systems can't deliver it. So it seems to me that a lot of audiophiles have accepted these sweet, bass-weak systems, and, in effect, these systems have become the references for audiophiles that everything is judged by.
(...) .

Caesar,
Bass weak is a dangerous and ambiguous epithet - can you clarify what you mean with it?

 

[rbbert]

Hasn't NOLA used essentially the same amps and cabling at the last 3 RAMFs, with speakers ranging from $10k to over $50k?

 

[microstrip]

It's not picking on Nola at all. JTinn was accused of doing it with his MMMicro One speakers as well as other dealers there that weekend who used a plethora of Transparent Opus. I liked the sound of Nola. Just play it with a cable commensurate with the system

Steve,
I had experience with a complete Odin setup and I fully agree that such cables will strongly affect the performance of the system. It can be interesting to use them to show the full potential of the speakers, but I understand that from a prospective buyer perspective it can be delusive.

 

[Priaptor]

Hasn't NOLA used essentially the same amps and cabling at the last 3 RAMFs, with speakers ranging from $10k to over $50k?

I am not sure, but I don't think so. I know Carl is a big fan of Nordost. While I have not compared Nordost to my current cable of choice, the MG Audio Designs, that is his preference. Carl has strong opinions but he knows his speakers very well and will play them with some exceptions, with the equipment he believes gives his speakers the best sound. His amp of choice for "some" of his speakers, including his 200K Concert Grands is the "measly" 9K ARC REF75. This has drawn some skeptical comments from some, but having used it for the past three days, I understand its relevance with the Concert Grands. Quite frankly, I find it kind of ballsy that he is going against the mainstream using a 9K amp with 200K speakers when competitors are usually carting in 50-150K amplifiers to demonstrate their flagship. The point being, if we are to criticize him for showing his lower priced speakers with outrageously expensive cables, why not comment about the ballsy decision to use electronics significantly cheaper than any of his competitors would dare use in demonstrate their flagship speakers.

 

[Bruce B]

I know JPS Labs keeps the same room at RMAF and I've been to a few other shows where the manufacturer keeps the same room for the purpose of knowing the acoustics and traffic. But JPS has shifted thier focus to headphones so room acoustics is irrellevant now.

Larry and Nick were using this room for the first time and they went in an unknown. Props to them for setting everything up before I got there. I thought it sounded stellar!

 

[KeithR]

Microstrip,

I wouldn't be surprised if you are correct with your technical assessment. However, how are we to know if the poor bass is due to poor recording, bad gear design, bad speaker design, or a bad room? At one time I was sub-woofer skeptic, but in search of realistic sound I have found that by using them in a well - setup system, they can make the system more dynamic, clean up the midrange and highs, and add immense realism - in addition to providing a few Hz of extension.

Personally, in the Doshi room, instead of spending $12k on a cartridge, I would have spent $4 k instead on the cartridge and spent the other $8k on 2 subwoofers. What would it have hurt to try it? I know I'm in a minority of not adoring the dishi alexia room, but I believe a lot of audiophiles do not put enough of a priority on getting the bass right. I hope that the Wilson XLF demo is a big step in our hobby to start shattering those limiting beliefs by of what is possible. I realize that living conditions don't always allow the right bass. And a lot of systems can't deliver it. So it seems to me that a lot of audiophiles have accepted these sweet, bass-weak systems, and, in effect, these systems have become the references for audiophiles that everything is judged by.

Despite the superb source material, the doshi system, although sounding good, is just another unremarkable variation of that same old thing. Yes, just a better version of the singing ladies like Diana Krall and Norah Jones who get ragged on by show attendees, but the doshi is same tired old thing. And if you have access to that superb tape source materials, why go with doshi when you can get outstanding sound from CJ, ARC, VAC, or another established company that has a rich history and solid reputation and do even better? May as well play it safe by going with an established gear manufacturer who has proven to deliver the magic, and at the same time going with a Visionary set -up that can do realistic bass.

Bottom line: a system that sounds sweet and natural yet omits a solid foundation does not sound real. There aren't any earth shattering insights with Doshi Alexia and no venturing into new territory as Wilson XLF / Thor demo has done, which I hope will bring a new dawn to our hobby...

Judging bass in any hotel room at a show is a joke. Im not sure why people continue to try.

Surprising you say play it safe with gear, but constantly rave about MBL.

 

[Bill Hart]

One of the things about this thread that is interesting is that there is a divergence of opinion among people who are seasoned listeners.
I would never judge a component without listening to it in my system, or at least a controlled environment in a good room after I have had some familiarity with the room, the associated gear, and listened to a wide variety of material.
That said, like juries, people generally seem to come to some consensus, with a few outliers. Not that the outliers are 'wrong' but it just reinforces why we live in subjectiveland.
Hell, if I lived in a hotel room all the time, I'd probably want something small, that didn't bother the neighbors and had remote control and snooze.
G'nite.

 

[KeithR]

One of the things about this thread that is interesting is that there is a divergence of opinion among people who are seasoned listeners.
I would never judge a component without listening to it in my system, or at least a controlled environment in a good room after I have had some familiarity with the room, the associated gear, and listened to a wide variety of material.
That said, like juries, people generally seem to come to some consensus, with a few outliers. Not that the outliers are 'wrong' but it just reinforces why we live in subjectiveland.
Hell, if I lived in a hotel room all the time, I'd probably want something small, that didn't bother the neighbors and had remote control and snooze.
G'nite.

Salient points. I think shows are useful to determine if an audition has merit in the first place- sort of a first cut so to speak, since the dealer network has dwindled so much.

 

[garylkoh]

I think that we should all relax and have a long cold drink. Depending on our individual preferences, the music that was playing in the room, even when we listened to the room and how many people were in the room at the time, we would all come to absolutely different conclusions of any room.

If the contents of the room can vary by a factor of 10 or 20, so can the sound quality of the music being played. Then, we also have the synergy of the system, and even the synergy of the system and the music to contend with.

No system will please everybody all of the time, and I think it will even be difficult to find a system that will please one listener all of the time. Some have achieved it, and I'll bet it took years and years of diligent work.

One of the biggest challenges to RMAF (and most shows except for CES) is that there is only one day to set the system up before the doors open to the public. I know that many times on Friday, I wished that I could have just kept the doors locked.

Take this quote:

someone else's opinions and some interesting observations.

http://audiomatters.blogspot.com/20..._campaign=Feed:+blogspot/IPuyM+(AudioMatters)

Patrick Dillon: On Friday I think Mike and I both agreed that nothing we heard sounded very good. There was a factor of more than 10 between the most and least expensive rooms, but there was a great flattening of difference in sonic quality. The Genesis room, one I'd targetted to hear after reviewing Gary Koh's excellent power cables, was loud and harsh sounding.

I wasn't in the room doing the demo, but I would have likely agreed with him. Usually, I would set the entire system up in the Genesis factory a month before the show starts, so that I would know the system, and I would pick demo music on the actual system we would be using. In this case, I didn't get the electronics until the morning the show started.

I thought I knew the Burmester sound and agreed to this, but my usual Burmester amplifier is the 911 and the 909. This show, the amp I used, the 956 is a little harder and leaner sounding than the 911. There were some albums I brought that should never have been played. May be I should have used a Soundsmith Hyperion instead of my usual modded Magic Diamond, but it would have been too much work to totally re-set-up the turntable in too short a space of time. So, for most of the first day, I thought that it was shouty and as a result, I couldn't play many of the albums I brought. I should have taken them out and hidden them.

Thankfully, he came back the next day:

Patrick Dillon: when I went back on Sunday to hear a far smoother, lower volume presentation that was easy on the ears and eyes led by Gary himself. His smaller speakers can be used in nearfield and they indeed sound very good up close.

Probably 30% of the albums I brought couldn't be demo'ed as they would have sounded hard and harsh.

Steve heard this himself. The first time I played the system for him, it probably insulted his sensitivities. It was that bad! Thankfully, he came back the next day or his impression of my designs would have been terrible and I wouldn't have blamed him for it.

I had to spend some more time after we closed the doors on Friday, and more time on Saturday morning to finally find the better position for the speakers. This was particularly difficult as I wanted to be able to swop between two pairs of speakers. It is possible to get good bass in the tiny rooms of the Marriott - but it would need a small speaker, and a LOT of work. I don't think that I got more than 70% of what could have been achieved with the G7f in the room. At the end of the day Sunday, I still wasn't satisfied with what I could get out of Touch Yello but it was far better than what I got on Saturday, which was far better than what I got on Friday.

So, I don't know if a show like this is worth doing at all. I might have ended up giving poor impressions to 50% of the people who did come into the room. But, if I didn't do shows, and with the dearth of good dealers, there wouldn't be any chance of anyone getting any impression of Genesis speakers at all.

 

[jazdoc]

Gary makes two terrific points:

1. Setting up and dialing in a system in a familiar environment is time consuming. I will grant you that I'm not the brightest guy on the forum, but any change to my system seems to require weeks (and sometimes months) to completely get my ears around. Attempting to show off your gear in a hotel room partnered with unfamiliar gear is a fool's errand. That some folks are even more adventurous and willing to use a vinyl system under those conditions is akin to a Kamikaze mission. If the room at RMAF sounds bad, it's difficult to say anything definitive. If a room sounds good, all I can say is that the system is good (and by inference, the individual components). Whether or not the equipment would sound good in MY room is a whole different story.

2. Playing attendee's music at a show is a crap shoot. On one hand, you want to be accommodating; on the other hand, you may have only 15 seconds to make an impression on a potential customer (or worse yet, a forum poster). I generally ask to play my well recorded music, especially if I'm not the only attendee in the room. If I'm trying to take the measure of a room, I wait to play lesser quality recordings when the room is empty or ask to come back later at a pre-arranged time. I have a great deal of respect for vendors like Gary and Jeff Catalano who are willing to let their customers play nearly anything.

 

[JackD201]

It is most definitely a crap shoot.

Every manufacturer is trying to differentiate himself somehow whether it is actually a conscious decision or not. Survival demands it. With neutrality and transparency the trend, where we hear more and more of the bad along with the good, this makes things all the more a crap shoot. I envy the guys who sell the audio equivalent of comfort food to be quite honest. Sweet and warm is pretty hard to screw up. Serve up a big plate of safe, pleasing coloration and you're golden.

The toughest part is that there's a whole lot of people out there focused on what might be wrong, what might go wrong or what actually is wrong. The thing is, what choice do the manufacturers and dealers have? You just have to go out there, do the best you can and try to take whatever comes your way with dignity. It's hard enough to dial things in to your own liking. You can take my word for this, we show presenters are our own toughest critics. Now add to that the impossible task of pleasing everybody. I've seen people crack as opening time comes. It isn't pretty. Boy, it isn't pretty.

The silver lining is that shows are a great opportunity to catch up with friends and make new ones. The gold lining is that every show is a challenge and if you choose to rise to it, there's always more to learn.

 

[microstrip]

When listening to a new system in an unknown room, I look mainly the positive and exceptionally good aspects - most probably they are intrinsic to the gear (or recording) and not just to the room or setup. Only a continuous re-listening in familiar conditions will allow a proper evaluation, but the main idea usually confirms.

Some reviewers make a point of listening a single recording they know very well in all systems - it is a just a lottery, they are mostly checking the compatibility of the recording with the systems. It is a nice experience for them, a poor service for manufacturers and readers. IMHO a reviewer should report on the music being played by the exhibitor. Gary said it all in a great previous post - a successful show needs professionalism in setting up the equipment, but also in choosing the recordings and levels to be used during playback.

And yes, no one will know how some equipment really sounds in a show, but love at first sight can happen, although some people will warn that it does not always guarantee a lifelong love...

 

[dminches]

Regarding expensive speaker cables...Richard Vandersteen was with a customer who purchased one of his mid-line speakers and equipped them with equally expensive cables. He asked the customer why he didn't buy the more expensive speakers and use cheap cables since the cost would be the same and the sound would be better. I do find it interesting that the speaker designers themselves seem less concerned with the cables than some of the consumers who buy the speakers.

 

[still-one]

Regarding expensive speaker cables...Richard Vandersteen was with a customer who purchased one of his mid-line speakers and equipped them with equally expensive cables. He asked the customer why he didn't buy the more expensive speakers and use cheap cables since the cost would be the same and the sound would be better. I do find it interesting that the speaker designers themselves seem less concerned with the cables than some of the consumers who buy the speakers.

Why did you find his response interesting? He is in the business of selling speakers and I am sure his profit margin is greater on the more expensive speakers. I doubt that too many speaker manufacturers ask to have their products demo'd with bulk wire versus more expensive offerings.

 

[microstrip]

Regarding expensive speaker cables...Richard Vandersteen was with a customer who purchased one of his mid-line speakers and equipped them with equally expensive cables. He asked the customer why he didn't buy the more expensive speakers and use cheap cables since the cost would be the same and the sound would be better. I do find it interesting that the speaker designers themselves seem less concerned with the cables than some of the consumers who buy the speakers.

Here enters the reasonable approach - I would never spend as much in the speaker cables as in the speakers. And it is also a question of semantics - what means exactly cheap cables? If in order to buy the speakers I would have to live with zip chord I would never buy the more expensive speakers!

 

[dminches]

Why did you find his response interesting? He is in the business of selling speakers and I am sure his profit margin is greater on the more expensive speakers. I doubt that too many speaker manufacturers ask to have their products demo'd with bulk wire versus more expensive offerings.

He is also in the business of making things sounding as good as possible. If you want to be cynical and think that the driving force behind his comment was money, go ahead. I have spoken to RV many times over the years and his passion for sound is great enough for me to believe that his comments come from good intentions.

 

[dminches]

Here enters the reasonable approach - I would never spend as much in the speaker cables as in the speakers. And it is also a question of semantics - what means exactly cheap cables? If in order to buy the speakers I would have to live with zip chord I would never buy the more expensive speakers!

I think he felt that his "better" speakers with radio shack lamp cord as speaker cables would sound better than the "lesser" speakers with expensive wiring.