RMAF 2013: Gear worth making the trip to Denver to hear... And not!

[audioarcher]

any comment about the Vapor Audio room ( with Nimbus speakers) and GR Research LS9 - lot's of guys at Audio Circle really like these two rooms

I thought the sound in the Vapor audio room was decent for a digital only room. The price of the speakers is pretty good for the sound performance. The paint finish is not up to the level of the Wilson's but I would not expect that at their price range.

 

[audioarcher]

I'd like to thank all the WBF members who stopped by - especially those who introduced me to new music - Myles for bringing a couple of unobtanium albums I'll have to work to find, Doug_R for the Trans Siberian Orchestra - Night Castle, audioarcher for Sphere - Flight Path (I've already bought a few copies), and Dre_J for Coryell-Khan - Two for the Road. I'll be demo-ing some of this at the next show

I demo'ed quite a wide range of music, and if there's interest, I'll post my full play-list.

I'm really glad that some of you liked what you heard in my room. I'll estimate that about 30% of people who came in thought that the sound was outstanding, 50% thought that it was "meh", and 20% did not like it at all. I heard comments from people walking out about weak bass and metallic-sounding midrange.

Nevertheless, as was mentioned in another thread, it's really tough when your ears aren't in the room to get someone else's opinion. What I like isn't for everybody, and I'm happy if there's someone else in the world who likes what I do. It's a preference after all.

To clarify the speakers, I demo'ed three models in the G7-series. The $12,500 G7f, the $6,000 G7c and the $4,800 G7p. The speakers that Steve listened to were the $6k/pr G7c - the ones sitting on the floor in the picture below.

This picture is from Sunday, when I took the baby G7p's for a spin. These were the speakers I designed for Carolyn, my sister.

View attachment 12212

The two most frequently asked questions were:

Q Which speakers are playing?
A Speakers? What speakers? The teddy bears are singing.

Q What subwoofer are you using?
A Subwoofer? What subwoofer? The teddy bears are growling.

I had a fun show - I always enjoy RMAF. Hope that everyone did as well. The dinner was outstanding - next year, we'll have to find a larger restaurant!!

It was my pleasure Gary. Just trying to pay you back for introducing me to lots of fine LP's in the past. I believe it was Dre J that introduced me to Sphere-Flight Path first. AKA The Truth. Thanks Dre. Incidentally Sphere-Flight Path was the winner at the PNWAS's LP shootout we had the day before RMAF.

I heard Al Grey and the Basie Wing-The Last Of The Big Plunger in Gary's room at RMAF and will have to pick it up.

 

[caesar]

Steve,

Most people believe in the magic of subwoofers and prefer to ignore the physics and that usually speaker manufacturers of large speakers know a lot about bass reproduction.

Most very large speakers, such as yours, are reasonably flat to 15-20 Hz in the free field - usually it is the interaction with the room that spoils the bass. Unless you are looking for extreme sub-bass or very loud bass levels most of the time the subs are just cancelling the "bad" effect of the room and placement. For normal stereo reproduction, good listener and speaker positioning, together with a great room, that should absorb the excess of bass at critical frequencies, can be better than filling the room with subs. Surely all IMHO and YMMV.

Microstrip,

I wouldn't be surprised if you are correct with your technical assessment. However, how are we to know if the poor bass is due to poor recording, bad gear design, bad speaker design, or a bad room? At one time I was sub-woofer skeptic, but in search of realistic sound I have found that by using them in a well - setup system, they can make the system more dynamic, clean up the midrange and highs, and add immense realism - in addition to providing a few Hz of extension.

Personally, in the Doshi room, instead of spending $12k on a cartridge, I would have spent $4 k instead on the cartridge and spent the other $8k on 2 subwoofers. What would it have hurt to try it? I know I'm in a minority of not adoring the dishi alexia room, but I believe a lot of audiophiles do not put enough of a priority on getting the bass right. I hope that the Wilson XLF demo is a big step in our hobby to start shattering those limiting beliefs by of what is possible. I realize that living conditions don't always allow the right bass. And a lot of systems can't deliver it. So it seems to me that a lot of audiophiles have accepted these sweet, bass-weak systems, and, in effect, these systems have become the references for audiophiles that everything is judged by.

Despite the superb source material, the doshi system, although sounding good, is just another unremarkable variation of that same old thing. Yes, just a better version of the singing ladies like Diana Krall and Norah Jones who get ragged on by show attendees, but the doshi is same tired old thing. And if you have access to that superb tape source materials, why go with doshi when you can get outstanding sound from CJ, ARC, VAC, or another established company that has a rich history and solid reputation and do even better? May as well play it safe by going with an established gear manufacturer who has proven to deliver the magic, and at the same time going with a Visionary set -up that can do realistic bass.

Bottom line: a system that sounds sweet and natural yet omits a solid foundation does not sound real. There aren't any earth shattering insights with Doshi Alexia and no venturing into new territory as Wilson XLF / Thor demo has done, which I hope will bring a new dawn to our hobby...

 

[caesar]

I couldn't have said it any better than Mike Bovaird as this system is one not meant for mere mortals.My absolute sentimental Best In Show continues to be Nick Doshi's room and as a result I have to put the Wilson XLF/Thor/VTL room as The Best Of The Best. Nothing IMO came even close to that demo

Steve, although I respectfully disagree with you about the Doshi/ Alexia demo, I agree with you and Mike Bovaird about Wilson XLF / Thor hammer demo. As I said above, I think a lot of audiophiles have accepted the sweet and natural sound as their standard. But thanks to that Wilson demo there is now a brand new and more original way of looking at the world. The game has definitely been ratcheted up several notches.

A whole bevy of the emotions were triggered by that demo: sheer Awe, gear Lust, and Surprise were tantalizing our reptilian brain, creating that itch with potential results of what that speaker and subwoofers can do. Add to that joyful, nostalgic, and emotionally impactful musical selections. Take the A Train, which I believe was a vinyl rip was superb, but the military band piece wanted me to stand up and cheer. As a result, I don't think anyone who attended that demo will ever forget it. And if they do get that system, have the proper real estate in their home, get expert set up, and get the source material from the likes of Greg Beron... WOWZERS!!!!!!!

So overall superb marketing job by Wilson. No one is even talking about any other brand. I still contend that von schweikert system sounded more natural than the Wilson room, while also having very realistic, compelling bass. It would have been really interesting to have Greg Beron's tape machine in the Wilson room to have a more realistic comparison of the 2 super systems. But we can only dream.

 

[cjfrbw]

I will agree with you about the foundation thing with bass. The bass is more important than most audiophile systems let on or strive to incorporate.

 

[MylesBAstor]

Microstrip,

I wouldn't be surprised if you are correct with your technical assessment. However, how are we to know if the poor bass is due to poor recording, bad gear design, bad speaker design, or a bad room? At one time I was sub-woofer skeptic, but in search of realistic sound I have found that by using them in a well - setup system, they can make the system more dynamic, clean up the midrange and highs, and add immense realism - in addition to providing a few Hz of extension.

Personally, in the Doshi room, instead of spending $12k on a cartridge, I would have spent $4 k instead on the cartridge and spent the other $8k on 2 subwoofers. What would it have hurt to try it? I know I'm in a minority of not adoring the dishi alexia room, but I believe a lot of audiophiles do not put enough of a priority on getting the bass right. I hope that the Wilson XLF demo is a big step in our hobby to start shattering those limiting beliefs by of what is possible. I realize that living conditions don't always allow the right bass. And a lot of systems can't deliver it. So it seems to me that a lot of audiophiles have accepted these sweet, bass-weak systems, and, in effect, these systems have become the references for audiophiles that everything is judged by.

Despite the superb source material, the doshi system, although sounding good, is just another unremarkable variation of that same old thing. Yes, just a better version of the singing ladies like Diana Krall and Norah Jones who get ragged on by show attendees, but the doshi is same tired old thing. And if you have access to that superb tape source materials, why go with doshi when you can get outstanding sound from CJ, ARC, VAC, or another established company that has a rich history and solid reputation and do even better? May as well play it safe by going with an established gear manufacturer who has proven to deliver the magic, and at the same time going with a Visionary set -up that can do realistic bass.

Bottom line: a system that sounds sweet and natural yet omits a solid foundation does not sound real. There aren't any earth shattering insights with Doshi Alexia and no venturing into new territory as Wilson XLF / Thor demo has done, which I hope will bring a new dawn to our hobby...

1. Subs in the Alexia as well as any room at the show? Really? Were we in the same room or show? Square and with a false wall? Bass that was already way out of control in most rooms? Subs would have screwed the pooch royally. C'mon these are hotel not sound rooms! I'd really like to see what all these arm chair QBs would do in 24 hrs with a room previously sight unseen.

2. You've obviously never had nor heard the Doshi gear in your system or else you couldn't have made the above statement.

3. Your logic eludes me. So what would have happened if we just dismissed cj when we already had ARC? Or VAC when we already had ARC and cj? Or VPI when we already had Linn? Or Goldmund when we already had the aforementioned companies? This is the nature of business. You have to fight to be and maintain being número uno and there's always someone to knock you off so one can't rest on their laurels.

 

[rbbert]

Just a small correction: the rooms aren't (or at least shouldn't be) "sight unseen". And I thought the OP was clear it was the sound in the room he was reviewing, not the sound of the components or the system somewhere else.

 

[MylesBAstor]

Just a small correction: the rooms aren't (or at least shouldn't be) "sight unseen".

Is that based on conversations with manufacturers or supposition? Either way you're mistaken except in the case of those exhibitors who have over the years moved up to the few good rooms and kept them. For the rest, it's a crapshoot.

And I thought the OP was clear it was the sound in the room he was reviewing, not the sound of the components or the system somewhere else.

No correction was needed.

 

[rbbert]

Is that based on conversations with manufacturers or supposition? Either way you're mistaken except in the case of those exhibitors who have over the years moved up to the few good rooms and kept them. For the rest, it's a crapshoot.

Many (not a few) of the exhibitors, including Bruce B., say they are familiar with the rooms and need only fine tuning after they arrive. The ones who don't for the most part may not really care, especially judging by the continuing dearth of simple acoustic treatments in those rooms. It's been pointed out in a number of places that some (many?) manufacturers, especially major ones, are more interested in using the shows to generate interest among professional reviewers to get out review samples than actually making a good sounding room for the public. And given that RAMF attendance seems to be falling over the last few years who can blame them?

I agree that with many of the larger rooms using movable relatively flimsy dividers between rooms that it's hard to know in advance how things (especially bass) will sound, but that shouldn't hold true for the normal rooms or suites.

 

[Elliot G.]

Is that based on conversations with manufacturers or supposition? Either way you're mistaken except in the case of those exhibitors who have over the years moved up to the few good rooms and kept them. For the rest, it's a crapshoot.



No correction was needed.

I find all of this so much fun to read since it only totally reinforces my premise that shows suck for sound. It seems every year at every show people want to pontificate on the sound of a ton of gear set up in a hotel room ( yes a hotel room with bad acoustics, bad electricity , crappy walls etc.) and argue over what sounds like real music.
I think we should next year take INDY cars are put them in an IKEA parking lot on a sale day and discuss the acceleration and handling ability.
Its a show guys, limited access time, poor and risky rooms. limited electricity and a tremendous amount of stress. If you make your determinations of the ultimate quality of gear like this then "let the buyer beware!"

 

[Frank750]

I find all of this so much fun to read since it only totally reinforces my premise that shows suck for sound. It seems every year at every show people want to pontificate on the sound of a ton of gear set up in a hotel room ( yes a hotel room with bad acoustics, bad electricity , crappy walls etc.) and argue over what sounds like real music.
I think we should next year take INDY cars are put them in an IKEA parking lot on a sale day and discuss the acceleration and handling ability.
Its a show guys, limited access time, poor and risky rooms. limited electricity and a tremendous amount of stress. If you make your determinations of the ultimate quality of gear like this then "let the buyer beware!"

I couldn't agree more. I've been in my current room for 8 years. I've had electricians in on a number of occasions tailoring feeds to my needs. I have 40 or so tube traps in the room and have destroyed the sound more than once by putting a stack in the wrong position or even turning the reflective side or absorptive side in the wrong direction. Point is, I get crap sound or at least far less than optimal sound if everything is not perfect. Acoustics, electricity and everything else that goes with it. The better and more resolving systems are even more dependent on everything being just right to extract their best. I believe that's why at most shows the upper tier systems almost never sound good. The situation is near impossible.

 

[MylesBAstor]

Many (not a few) of the exhibitors, including Bruce B., say they are familiar with the rooms and need only fine tuning after they arrive. The ones who don't for the most part may not really care, especially judging by the continuing dearth of simple acoustic treatments in those rooms. It's been pointed out in a number of places that some (many?) manufacturers, especially major ones, are more interested in using the shows to generate interest among professional reviewers to get out review samples than actually making a good sounding room for the public. And given that RAMF attendance seems to be falling over the last few years who can blame them?

I agree that with many of the larger rooms using movable relatively flimsy dividers between rooms that it's hard to know in advance how things (especially bass) will sound, but that shouldn't hold true for the normal rooms or suites.

Where does Bruce say that? And what manufacturers are you referring to? The few that I mentioned keep the same room?

Fine tuning? Really? If that's the case, why are good sounding rooms a rarity if all the rooms only need fine tuning. And you have to be kidding about the suites. They are just as, if worse sounding, than the other rooms. Dropped ceilings? The only thing that suites offer over the other rooms is size.

And as Elliot said, you can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear. What can you do with a square room???

As far as attendance, do you have any hard figures? I don't and don't think attendance was all that down. But even if it was, that's probably now attributable to nine audio shows a year than anything else.

And not to insult Bruce, but the majority of the Doshi room was set up before he arrived

 

[rbbert]

someone else's opinions and some interesting observations.

http://audiomatters.blogspot.com/20..._campaign=Feed:+blogspot/IPuyM+(AudioMatters)

 

[rbbert]

Where does Bruce say that? And not to insult Bruce, but the majority of the Doshi room was set up before he arrived

Just ask him, Myles. He's posted that here before, at least once in one of the topics for last year's RAMF; I don't think it's a secret. And head over to Audio Circle sometime; the manufacturers there will also be happy to converse with you.

 

[MylesBAstor]

Just ask him, Myles. He's posted that here before, at least once in one of the topics for last year's RAMF; I don't think it's a secret. And head over to Audio Circle sometime; the manufacturers there will also be happy to converse with you.

I don't need to. I go to five shows a year and talk to all the manufacturers in person.

 

[MylesBAstor]

someone else's opinions and some interesting observations.

http://audiomatters.blogspot.com/20..._campaign=Feed:+blogspot/IPuyM+(AudioMatters)

Who's he?

 

[rbbert]

Who's he?

A blogger for HiFiZine...

 

[MylesBAstor]

A blogger for HiFiZine...

Exactly.

 

[rbbert]

Exactly.

??

 

[Priaptor]

If we all agreed on what we like we wouldn't need to have these shows. As far as Nola. Very good but give me a break as they had over $40K of Odin cable for a $10K speaker

I agree about YG. Wonderful sound but didn't stir my juices.

Why pick on Nola? So he uses his standard reference cable for every show. This is how he shows his speaker. I happen to have just taken delivery of his new Concert Grand Reference Gold and don't use the 40K cabling he uses, but they have the Nola signature which is why people who like and/or love his speakers buy them. One could question why he ONLY used the cheapest and least powerful ARC REF amp in showing just as much as one could question his use of Odins. He does what he believes sounds best. In fact, he recommends the REF75 for his signature speakers, which I just took delivery on which in my setup is currently being driven by REF250s. However, I have been trying the REF75, an amp 1/3 the price and guess what, he is right. So if we are to criticize his decision for using uber expensive cabling in showing his middle of the road reference series, lets be equally critical for him using "cheap" electronics. I pose the question-when adding up the "cheap" amp he is using + the expensive cabling he is using, the net sum is probably similar to what others were showing in a 35K speaker.

In any case, from a marketing perspective, I do agree with you that most people are NOT going to spend 40K for cables for a 35K speaker. But to each his own and the reality is there is so much good stuff out there and preference and what works in one's room and IF the person maximizes what they have is ultimately the issue. If you can just sit and enjoy the music, that is what counts.