RMAF 2013: Gear worth making the trip to Denver to hear... And not!

[Steve williams]

I'd like to thank all the WBF members who stopped by - especially those who introduced me to new music - Myles for bringing a couple of unobtanium albums I'll have to work to find, Doug_R for the Trans Siberian Orchestra - Night Castle, audioarcher for Sphere - Flight Path (I've already bought a few copies), and Dre_J for Coryell-Khan - Two for the Road. I'll be demo-ing some of this at the next show

I demo'ed quite a wide range of music, and if there's interest, I'll post my full play-list.

I'm really glad that some of you liked what you heard in my room. I'll estimate that about 30% of people who came in thought that the sound was outstanding, 50% thought that it was "meh", and 20% did not like it at all. I heard comments from people walking out about weak bass and metallic-sounding midrange.

Nevertheless, as was mentioned in another thread, it's really tough when your ears aren't in the room to get someone else's opinion. What I like isn't for everybody, and I'm happy if there's someone else in the world who likes what I do. It's a preference after all.

To clarify the speakers, I demo'ed three models in the G7-series. The $12,500 G7f, the $6,000 G7c and the $4,800 G7p. The speakers that Steve listened to were the $6k/pr G7c - the ones sitting on the floor in the picture below.

This picture is from Sunday, when I took the baby G7p's for a spin. These were the speakers I designed for Carolyn, my sister.

View attachment 12212

The two most frequently asked questions were:

Q Which speakers are playing?
A Speakers? What speakers? The teddy bears are singing.

Q What subwoofer are you using?
A Subwoofer? What subwoofer? The teddy bears are growling.

I had a fun show - I always enjoy RMAF. Hope that everyone did as well. The dinner was outstanding - next year, we'll have to find a larger restaurant!!

Gary

I admit that I asked you those same questions and was stunned when you said $6K

Your choice in music is not only exceptional but far away from what is spinning in most other rooms

 

[cjfrbw]

RMAF impressions 2:

One of my first visits was to the Classic Audio speaker/Atma-Sphere demo on the Lobby floor. The big corner horns were playing and I liked them very much, a very positive impression. It was my first horn demo of the day, and and it was good. It belied the horn stereotypes and played very well. The music selection was kind of a "Commodore Classic" 35mm type with extreme right and left material, but it still sounded pretty integrated across the middle when that stuff occurred. I did not hear the smaller, more conventional model.

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?12355-Steve-s-RMAF-2013-Photo-Thread post 5

There were two sony speaker demos, both with Pass amplifiers, both congenial, warm sound in that classic, old school way, but I didn't linger because I heard them before.

I heard a couple of other demos, but for the life of me, I can't remember a thing about them (Thrax/Daedalus).

I then went to the Head Fi headphone section, and reaffirmed my positive regard for the Abyss/ Cavalli Liquid Gold combo. I heard this one in two locations, and liked it very much. I also heard the Sennheiser 700 headphones with Sennheisers own amplifier. I think I liked it better than the 800, more mellow but with comparable sound stage.

I also had a more positive experience with the Stax 009 with a Blue Hawaii. However, I think I still like the Abyss better. I also still like my own Frankenstein Stax setups better than either, but my setups are non-commercial and DIY with out of production amplifiers.

I guess there were at least four separate Focal speaker demos around, and I heard two of them. The first was with a smaller model with three elements and the two break spine. This would have been Musical Surroundings/Apex Audio/Aesthetix/Clearaudio/Focal Utopia room.

I had one of those peculiar "bum's rush" experiences with the representative that you sometimes get in high end audio. I told him the room was empty, so
would he mind to play one of my records? He gave me a look of pain and said, "No it's not", and we both looked around and saw the empty room so he reluctantly took the record. While the record was playing, he was laughing and talking to somebody outside the door and said "I'm playing somebody's demo", hardy har har.

When it was finished, he gave it back and condescendingly said, "Well, that was fun".

I gather that when you enter some of these high end parlors, they try to decide if you are a non-audiophile who lost his way to the bathroom, a Rube audiophile who fell off the turnip truck clutching his Bavarian OOmpah music, a reasonably seasoned tourist audiophile, or a Whale audiophile (free spending high roller). If they think you are the Whale, they will start humping your leg with full frontal snob offensive. If they believe you are experienced, they may deign to grace you with some shred of approval.

I guess he must have surmised that I was somewhere between the Rube and the guy who lost his way to the bathroom.

I understand that the vendors "fear the Reaper". The Reaper is the non-buying audiophile who appears with music that does not flatter their stock in trade sound and engages in a lot of tire kicking, time wasting questions and nonsense. However, in an empty room, it would still pay to be genuinely courteous.

Nontheless, the sound was excellent and one of the better sounds at the show. I preferred it to the other, larger Focal speaker demo (http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?12355-Steve-s-RMAF-2013-Photo-Thread/page2 post 14 bottom), which betrayed a bit of the Beryllium dome sharpness that some complain about. The smaller Focal speaker did not have that "bite" and sounded very smooth, open and spacious with the electronics.

I went to the YG Acoustics/Veloce/Kronos Room, and generally liked it. The sound was warm, but it did not have the impact of the YG/Ypsilon demo I heard at CAS 2013. I did not hear the larger YG demo.

The Audio Video Logic Krell/Magico demo was OK, but not great. It had surprising bass impact for such a small speaker cone, but I did not see a subwoofer. I think this speaker would do well with a "tube cure." I didn't hear any of the other Magico demos. http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?12355-Steve-s-RMAF-2013-Photo-Thread/page4 krell/magico post 40

More later when my fingers recover.

 

[Bruce B]

Sorry to disagree Myles but my badge has never been waiting for me when I got to the head of the line. Press like yourself gets there badges a day early.

As an exhibitor, I didn't get a badge until Saturday, even after registering months ago. This is the second year it has happened.

 

[mep]

Did anybody stop by the Raven Audio room? I'm a friend of the owner and I'd appreciate some feedback from the people in this forum. Thanks!

View attachment 12198
View attachment 12199

I did get to spend some time in the Raven room and I thought the sound was very good. I hope to be reviewing some of their gear in the new future.

 

[Bill Hart]

Carl- do i have permission to excerpt that portion of your post regarding how sales people 'qualify' buyers and cross-post to another forum? You captured the essential truth, hilariously.

 

[garylkoh]

Gary

I admit that I asked you those same questions and was stunned when you said $6K

Your choice in music is not only exceptional but far away from what is spinning in most other rooms

Thanks, Steve. Thanks for taking so much time to spend with me. I enjoyed spinning music for you and for Carl.

 

[Rhapsody]

Driving Rockports? I didn't think the Absolare amps sounded so great last time driving Rockports either.

Myles, Would love to have you visit our studio on 24th street in NYC to hear the Absolare gear with the SoundKaos Wave 40 speakers, at your convenience. Please get in touch if you would ever like to visit. Bob 212-229-1842

 

[Gregadd]

As a big fan of NOLA I do want to say a few things.

They are not alone in showing associated components that are out of line price wise with thwir product. I have seen exhibits where the designer made a point of avoiding room treatment, exotic cables, and even equipment racks. Gershman just sat the speakers in the middle of the room and the equipment on the floor.
I am not a manufacturer .It does appear to me many company's ' share expenses at the show. I suppose they share expenses and designate what equipment they want ot exhibit.
If Nordist agrees to share costs NOLA and or loan equipment I do not see anything wrong with that per se. It's not necessarily NOLA saying our speakers require this cable to sound this way. I don't know. It may be Nordist saying; ,We want to exhibit this cable . Are you interested? We will also share the cost the of exhibit, Only the people involved know what happened.

No offense to Nordist. It is doubtful that cables of any price is making that bid a difference.

 

[cjfrbw]

Carl- do i have permission to excerpt that portion of your post regarding how sales people 'qualify' buyers and cross-post to another forum? You captured the essential truth, hilariously.

Sure, Bill, I'm flattered. Don't know if these "techniques" are a product of the salesman's personality, or if they somehow "work" with some customers so they never die, but it seems everybody runs into them at some time. They remind me of the hilarious British comedy, "Are You Being Served" and the Mr. Peacock character.

 

[MasterChief]

I had one of those peculiar "bum's rush" experiences with the representative that you sometimes get in high end audio. I told him the room was empty, so
would he mind to play one of my records? He gave me a look of pain and said, "No it's not", and we both looked around and saw the empty room so he reluctantly took the record. While the record was playing, he was laughing and talking to somebody outside the door and said "I'm playing somebody's demo", hardy har har.

When it was finished, he gave it back and condescendingly said, "Well, that was fun".

I gather that when you enter some of these high end parlors, they try to decide if you are a non-audiophile who lost his way to the bathroom, a Rube audiophile who fell off the turnip truck clutching his Bavarian OOmpah music, a reasonably seasoned tourist audiophile, or a Whale audiophile (free spending high roller). If they think you are the Whale, they will start humping your leg with full frontal snob offensive. If they believe you are experienced, they may deign to grace you with some shred of approval.

I guess he must have surmised that I was somewhere between the Rube and the guy who lost his way to the bathroom.

I understand that the vendors "fear the Reaper". The Reaper is the non-buying audiophile who appears with music that does not flatter their stock in trade sound and engages in a lot of tire kicking, time wasting questions and nonsense. However, in an empty room, it would still pay to be genuinely courteous.

Thank you for the report! The quoted part I feel the need to commentate. This behavior from a sales man can somewhat be understandable if we are talking about a store but at a show?! Unacceptable and that I would have told the person face to face.

My reference experience, from a show, is when I talked to TAD:s Andrew Jones about his reference TAD system at the Stockholm HighEnd show and he was an absolute gentleman, and there I stood in my sneakers, washed out T-shirt and pretty bad knowledge in the english language.

 

[KeithR]

RMAF impressions 2:

I had one of those peculiar "bum's rush" experiences with the representative that you sometimes get in high end audio. I told him the room was empty, so
would he mind to play one of my records? He gave me a look of pain and said, "No it's not", and we both looked around and saw the empty room so he reluctantly took the record. While the record was playing, he was laughing and talking to somebody outside the door and said "I'm playing somebody's demo", hardy har har.

When it was finished, he gave it back and condescendingly said, "Well, that was fun".

I gather that when you enter some of these high end parlors, they try to decide if you are a non-audiophile who lost his way to the bathroom, a Rube audiophile who fell off the turnip truck clutching his Bavarian OOmpah music, a reasonably seasoned tourist audiophile, or a Whale audiophile (free spending high roller). If they think you are the Whale, they will start humping your leg with full frontal snob offensive. If they believe you are experienced, they may deign to grace you with some shred of approval.

I played the (then) new Daft Punk at the Newport show in the Lamm/DC10/Ayon/United RTR audio room and the exhibitor listened to it for 2 minutes and then turned off the track half way in to put on some dull, audiophile approved Leonard Cohen (who actually listens to that guy for an hour). I kid you not- it really pissed me off and I asked for my disc and left the room while a woman was trying to explain like I was a complete moron who Leonard Cohen was. btw, that DP album is on Fremer's list, is now featured on the Stereophile webpage from RMAF, and is the highest grossing album of the year with a stirling recording courtesy of Bob Ludwig (as JA admits). It has a 9 on Pitchfork for all you music reviewer types.

I played the same album in the KEF room and had 10 people walking into the room wondering what that cool music was. Alex @ Ayre went out and bought the LP after I played it in his room.

I swear, our hobby is a%$-backwards at times.

 

[garylkoh]

I agree - Random Access Memories is a great album that needs to be taken out for an airing to audiophiles.

When I show in New York, I played the about-to-be-released Swedish House Mafia album, and there were as any audiophiles running out of my room as there were music lovers running IN.

 

[jazdoc]

I played the (then) new Daft Punk at the Newport show in the Lamm/DC10/Ayon/United RTR audio room and the exhibitor listened to it for 2 minutes and then turned off the track half way in to put on some dull, audiophile approved Leonard Cohen (who actually listens to that guy for an hour). I kid you not- it really pissed me off and I asked for my disc and left the room while a woman was trying to explain like I was a complete moron who Leonard Cohen was. btw, that DP album is on Fremer's list, is now featured on the Stereophile webpage from RMAF, and is the highest grossing album of the year with a stirling recording courtesy of Bob Ludwig (as JA admits). It has a 9 on Pitchfork for all you music reviewer types.

I played the same album in the KEF room and had 10 people walking into the room wondering what that cool music was. Alex @ Ayre went out and bought the LP after I played it in his room.

I swear, our hobby is a%$-backwards at times.

They actually played Daft Punk in the VTL/Wilson room! I walked into the Ayre room (the one stocked with vinyl) and they were playing the first Tame Impala record and I had a nice conversation with one of the guys about Tame Impala and Pond.

One of the reasons I always look forward to the High Water Sound room is Jeff Catalano's amazing vinyl collection. The guy has one of the best and most eclectic music collections I've ever seen. How many people would play a beater copy of an old Ventures LP at a show just because he wanted to hear it? I brought the new Jamey Johnson LP to his room and Jeff was mad because he had the LP in his hands a few days before and didn't buy it!

Unfortunately, too many audiophiles would rather hear crappy music recorded well than visa versa. I actually got chatised by a RMAF vendor for having him demo Cat Power's "Sun"; an LP that he deemed poorly recorded. Ironically, the LP is pretty well recorded, but did sound like crap in the vendor's room...I started to comment that if your system doesn't make you want to play your non-audiophile recordings then it's not a worthwhile hardware investment but figured that it would be wasted on that vendor.

 

[Bruce B]

The 2 coolest things I saw at RMAF (besides Doshi's new tape pre), had to do with headphone listening.

1. Astell & Kern portable music player. Seems this has been on the market for a while playing up to 24/192 files, but now it accepts DSD files!! Using micro SD cards, you can record anything you want on the Tascam DA-3000 and pop the card into the portable player and have music on the go!! I listened to it with full-size headphones (Sennheiser HD650) and the music was amazing!

2. Smythe Realiser A8. The concept in this is 2 fold. You put these little microphones in your ear and listen to them on a reference system. Hell, you can take them to MikeL's house and listen to the cuts and have his reference system where ever you go! It takes a 'snapshot' of the frequency plot and other things and stores it. Then all you do is plug in your favorite headphones and I very well doubt you can hear the difference when you take the headphones off and the real system. There is an "eye" that you place on the wall between your front speakers, and unlike the "in your head" sound you get with headphones, the soundstage is out front and stable even if you move your head back and forth! I don't know how they do it, but it was an amazing demo. I'm definitely getting one of these bad boys!

 

[cjfrbw]

RMAF Impressions #3:

Anyway, to rush through some final impressions,

Wavelength audio room. A flip-flop. A guy was playing his own medley CD consisting of short snatches. This was effective in other rooms I heard because it allowed different kinds of music in quick succession, but for some reason the sound quality fell flat in the Wavelength room and I was ready to write the room off. Then, they played their own stuff and the sound blossomed into huge and solemnly sweet. This is the only effective use of the plasma tweeter I have heard where it does what it is supposed to do: disappear, but convey a mysterious, airy and vast charm to the presentation. The flip-flop reminds me of the vulnerability of making any kind of final evaluations under show conditions. A big thumbs up for the Wavelength room with the Napoleon 300b amps and plasma?type tweeter.

A surprisingly effective and dynamic demo was the Emerald Physics DSP demo. This was the single speaker mounted in an open dipole baffle, and it was really good sounding and very dynamic. I never would have guessed this possible from appearance.

McIntosh room with large line array. Decent sound. Somebody needs to apply an electronic choke collar to the salesman and clamp his vocal cords after three minutes until he has played at least eight minutes of music again. I was surprised that the McIntosh sales pitch hasn't changed much since the first demo I saw as an impoverished resident in New Orleans in 1979 i.e. legacy products, will last forever, you will be willing them to your children yada yada yada. I liked the sound and the McIntosh faceplates are wonderful as usual. I rather liked the smaller line array in another room better, but I think that may just be room ergonomics.
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?12355-Steve-s-RMAF-2013-Photo-Thread/page7 McIntosh post 61

Von Schweikert room: much better than my impressions from CAS 2013 with the biggie speakers, but I was dragging when I heard it and kind of dragged in and dragged out again.
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?12355-Steve-s-RMAF-2013-Photo-Thread von sch. post 27

Wells Audio: I did not hear this, but this was the system at CAS 2013 that I thought was one of the bargain systems. 90 to 95 percent of the YG Acoustics/Ypsilon sound at a fraction of the cost in a small to medium size space.
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?12355-Steve-s-RMAF-2013-Photo-Thread/page4 Wells post 35

Triode Audio: http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?12355-Steve-s-RMAF-2013-Photo-Thread/page5 triode post 41
For the second time, one of the best sounds at the show, really excellent. I did notice, however, that the VU meters were showing the power was pushing out to the limits of the amp, so I don't know how these would do with Led Zeppelin.

D'agostino Room: http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?12355-Steve-s-RMAF-2013-Photo-Thread/page5 d'agostino post 46 Not terribly impressive when I was in there, for the second time at a show.

TAD: I heard two demos, not quite up to muster from my expectations but not bad. http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?12355-Steve-s-RMAF-2013-Photo-Thread/page3 TAD post 22

Wynn/Reimyo: I really liked these expensive speakers. Moderate size to the soundstage, but intensely sweet tone and outstanding quality overall. A classical music lover's dream, but pricey. http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?12355-Steve-s-RMAF-2013-Photo-Thread/page8 wynn/Reimyo post 75

Volti/Border Patrol: One of the true gems of the show, I loved this one. At about 16K for the speakers/woofer and 16k for the amp with power supplies, a high end bargain. When you consider that for every 10 db of dynamic capability that you double to quintuple the price of a competent stereo system at least, here is a system you can put in almost any room with unlimited dynamic capability and open, sweet, detailed sound. Another DHT/horn system that I could love. http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?12355-Steve-s-RMAF-2013-Photo-Thread/page7 volti post 69



Vivid: Small system placed in a corner, no less. I have heard four Vivid demos so far, and liked all of them. Quick melt into listening rather than evaluation. I played the same music that I played at the Focal demo, and no, it didn't sound as good, but it is much less expensive and very involving, nonetheless. I would say Vivid has really got the tonal balance thing correct and they seem to play with equal finesse with both solid state and tubes. John Atkinson was in the room, and he and O'Hanlon were doing an Irish brogue/ slightly Scottish British accent thing while discussing O"Hanlon's corrupted digital files.
I have even forgiven Vivid speakers for looking like variations of plastic vaginas and semicircular canals.
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?12355-Steve-s-RMAF-2013-Photo-Thread/page2 vivid post 13

Saskia Room: Everybody loved this one, with the flea powered 50 tube amp, the vintage high efficiency speakers and the estimable and beautiful Saskia turntable. I heard it twice and Fremer was there the second time with his Go Pro camera as they rushed about getting things right for him. I really liked this sound as well, a great variant on the slightly "raw" but utterly charming DHT type sound.
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?12355-Steve-s-RMAF-2013-Photo-Thread/page6 saskia post 52

King Audio, Shaker Audio, Kaplan Cables

This was a great Stat demo. Big imaging, clear, and best of all, dynamic with great bass and no subwoofer assistance. Color me impressed.

I heard many more, but some I can't remember, and some negatives. I played one of my own pieces on the big Tannoy/Vac system. and barely recognized it, which serves as a reminder for the variations of execution and taste in high end audio.

I thought there were a lot of excellent systems to hear, and I didn't hear them all. I wish I had heard the Soundlabs and the Vapor audio stuff at the Hyatt, but no time or energy in my two days.

Overall, the show did what they should do: act as a social gathering point for audiophiles, elevate some devices above expectations, lower some below expectations. and explore completely novel areas of audio that I didn't know were even there. Only problem is, it takes probably twice the time to digest it all, and I missed a lot even trying to motor through.

 

[puroagave]

Volti/Border Patrol: One of the true gems of the show, I loved this one. At about 16K for the speakers/woofer and 16k for the amp with power supplies, a high end bargain. When you consider that for every 10 db of dynamic capability that you double to quintuple the price of a competent stereo system at least, here is a system you can put in almost any room with unlimited dynamic capability and open, sweet, detailed sound. Another DHT/horn system that I could love.

fwiw, the vittora recently achieved class A in stereophile. i'm glad to see Greg Roberts get the recognition, greg offered me ser #3 when he was relatively unknown and before art dudley discovered him. im kicking myself beacuse it was for half of what they go for now

 

[rbbert]

...
Triode Audio: http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?12355-Steve-s-RMAF-2013-Photo-Thread/page5 triode post 41
For the second time, one of the best sounds at the show, really excellent. I did notice, however, that the VU meters were showing the power was pushing out to the limits of the amp, so I don't know how these would do with Led Zeppelin.
...

I noticed this in both 2011 and 2012, one reason I've decided to stick with my Pass INT-150 for these speakers (for now at least)

 

[c1ferrari]

That's awfully difficult. I would guess mid to low 90's. But it was so clear and clean that it could very well have been higher.

Thanks. What was the source...analog master tape

 

[audioarcher]

The 2 coolest things I saw at RMAF (besides Doshi's new tape pre), had to do with headphone listening.

1. Astell & Kern portable music player. Seems this has been on the market for a while playing up to 24/192 files, but now it accepts DSD files!! Using micro SD cards, you can record anything you want on the Tascam DA-3000 and pop the card into the portable player and have music on the go!! I listened to it with full-size headphones (Sennheiser HD650) and the music was amazing!

2. Smythe Realiser A8. The concept in this is 2 fold. You put these little microphones in your ear and listen to them on a reference system. Hell, you can take them to MikeL's house and listen to the cuts and have his reference system where ever you go! It takes a 'snapshot' of the frequency plot and other things and stores it. Then all you do is plug in your favorite headphones and I very well doubt you can hear the difference when you take the headphones off and the real system. There is an "eye" that you place on the wall between your front speakers, and unlike the "in your head" sound you get with headphones, the soundstage is out front and stable even if you move your head back and forth! I don't know how they do it, but it was an amazing demo. I'm definitely getting one of these bad boys!

I listened through a Smythe Realizer at the show as well. It is an interesting effect. I am not sure how well it captured the sound of the original room since I have not heard it but it was definitely more appealing than straight through the headphones.

 

[Dimfer]

any comment about the Vapor Audio room ( with Nimbus speakers) and GR Research LS9 - lot's of guys at Audio Circle really like these two rooms