Robert Harleys 'listening room

[Bobvin]

I get the feeling that most people that spend on a dedicated bespoke engineered room are under the belief that they are getting an optimized solution; they are obviously not and that is where first meet expectations comes in. You are arguing both sides of the coin here. If all you want is a nice looking room with a view then there are many contractors for that type of build out that are not specialized but can be given guidance and direction. So which one is it? Is your engineered room any different than a well thought out DIY room? I have made no attempt to address the room and I believe that the sound of my systems speak for themselves. Some times it pays of to be smarter than to reach for your wallet.

Carlos, Bonnie Schnitta, PhD of SoundSence LLC has a long history and impeccable bona fides as an acoustician. She has her own algorithm for modeling a room that allows for all kinds of anomalies one might encounter in an acoustic remodel — room dimensions, surfaces, irregularities, etc. I have an old thread in the Wilson Audio Owner’s forum titled “Wilson and ARC for me” that you can briefly scroll through the first seven pages to view the photos showing design elements incorporated in the remodel. (Skip the text, the photos give solid representation of the build.)

Of course, I’m sure you’d argue is all a waste of resources. Enjoy your room and gear, and I’ll enjoy mine.

 

[Carlos269]

Carlos, Bonnie Schnitta, PhD of SoundSence LLC has a long history and impeccable bona fides as an acoustician. She has her own algorithm for modeling a room that allows for all kinds of anomalies one might encounter in an acoustic remodel — room dimensions, surfaces, irregularities, etc. I have an old thread in the Wilson Audio Owner’s forum titled “Wilson and ARC for me” that you can briefly scroll through the first seven pages to view the photos showing design elements incorporated in the remodel. (Skip the text, the photos give solid representation of the build.)

Of course, I’m sure you’d argue is all a waste of resources. Enjoy your room and gear, and I’ll enjoy mine.

Why don’t we compare results instead of arguing?

 

[Bobvin]

Why don’t we compare results instead of arguing?

You want to oil yourself up and flex and pose Carlos go for it. I outgrew the desire to do that long, long ago.

I’m not trying to prove anything. I originally posted I think a room with a lot of wall add-ons, after such a meticulous build, missed an opportunity to add design elements that make a room aesthetically pleasing and less like a recording studio. The look and feel of the room are important to me, I spend a lot of time there.

People who visit often comment my room is one of the best sounding rooms they’ve been in, and definitely the most appealing visually. I argue only that a room can be both.

 

[Carlos269]

You want to oil yourself up and flex and pose Carlos go for it. I outgrew the desire to do that long, long ago.

I’m not trying to prove anything. I originally posted I think a room with a lot of wall add-ons, after such a meticulous build, missed an opportunity to add design elements that make a room aesthetically pleasing and less like a recording studio. The look and feel of the room are important to me, I spend a lot of time there.

People who visit often comment my room is one of the best sounding rooms they’ve been in, and definitely the most appealing visually. I argue only that a room can be both.

I’m not trying to pose or flex. That’s not my style. If you notice, my aim is always to educate and warn others of the pitfalls of this hobby. I happen to think that dedicated bespoke engineered rooms is one of them. I have no problem with you or the road you chose to follow. With my knowledge and experience how can I stay quiet and watch others sink their money into things with little Return On Investment (ROI)? I figure that they are free to choose and spend their money how they want to. All I can do is warn people and that is all that I’m doing. You don’t need a bespoke engineered room to achieve killer sound and I have proof of it. That’s all……for now.

I’m sure that your room sounds lovely and that you will continue to defend and enjoy it. You chose it, you love it, you eat it up, even if deep down inside, you know that I’m right!

 

[microstrip]

(...) I suspect they will do Jacob Heilbrunn’s room next…and that is really cool.

Ten years ago TAS published an excellent article on his room - it is great to see the photos of the room being built and details on the room treatment. https://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/state-of-the-art-in-dc/

But my reference on this subject is still the article with the details of the built up of Winston Ma listening room in Positive Feedback issue 3. https://positive-feedback.com/Issue3/maroom.htm Everytime I see someone removing tube tube traps from his room I think about this particular room. In some aspects the high-end is surely a question of faith - and for some reason I have faith in this wonderful space.

 

[Gregadd]

So go ahead and show me how to make for example a room thatt allows both a Mag9cp and a Magnepan perform to thier optimum.

 

[microstrip]

(...) That could never have happened if the design was specific to the Wilson speakers.

Now, I am curious. What is a "design specific to Wilson speakers"? As far as I have read, Wilson do not endorse audio treatments in the walls adjacent to the speakers.

 

[microstrip]

So go ahead and show me how to make for example a room thatt allows both a Mag9cp and a Magnepan perform to thier optimum.

Jacob Heilbrunn had Magnepan before he got Wilson's. Never read he changed the room when he switched speakers.

 

[Another Johnson]

My experience is like Wilson’s in that it is good to find a spot where the speakers have their best chance to work.

Bobvin and RH have rooms for different purposes. Bob wants his room to make his system sound its best. RH wants his room to be as neutral as possible so that he can more easily discern the affect of changes.

Bob wants his room to look great for him and his guests. RH wants his room to be fair to the widest possible range of gear, and the purpose is to listen, not to look.

It is natural to be proud of our purpose built rooms and to want to show them off. But just as we all hear differently, we also strut differently. What turns on one, turns off another.

TAS 50th Anniversary issue just arrived with my mail. I think a martini and a little Kenny Burrell might make it an easy exit ramp to an afternoon nap.

 

[Bobvin]

Now, I am curious. What is a "design specific to Wilson speakers"? As far as I have read, Wilson do not endorse audio treatments in the walls adjacent to the speakers.

I have no idea. Carlos was arguing my room design did not seem to account for the original kit or the original speakers. My counter argument is a room designed to a specific set of speakers is a poor design. You should be able to (imho) put any speaker into a well engineered space and have it sound very, very good. Obsessive types may choose to tweak beyond speaker placement to tease out any missing bits of sonic bliss they think need be addressed.

 

[Bobvin]

So go ahead and show me how to make for example a room thatt allows both a Mag9cp and a Magnepan perform to thier optimum.

Have a visit to Chris at Rhapsody.Dallas. He has M9 and Alsyvox — room construction in the two rooms is essentially the same.

What specifically would you think needs to be different in a room for those two speakers, one being a sealed cabinet no energy to the rear, the other being a dipole no energy to the sides? Absent this particular specific element what acoustic problem might you predict one speaker vs. the other. (Keep in mind the premise of a well engineered room to begin with.)

 

[microstrip]

I have no idea. Carlos was arguing my room design did not seem to account for the original kit or the original speakers. My counter argument is a room designed to a specific set of speakers is a poor design. You should be able to (imho) put any speaker into a well engineered space and have it sound very, very good. Obsessive types may choose to tweak beyond speaker placement to tease out the any missing bits of sonic bliss they think need be addressed.

Yes, I also share your opinion, but as usual, there are some specific cases that invalidate rigid strict rules. Long ago I owned MBL101C speakers and If I was designing a room for MBL omnidirectional speakers I would do it differently from a room to Wilson's.

What is a well engineered room for a designer can be a poorly designed one for another one. They disagree the same way audiophiles do ...

 

[microstrip]

(....) What specifically would you think needs to be different in a room for those two speakers, one being a sealed cabinet no energy to the rear, the other being a dipole no energy to the sides? (...)

Not as simple as that - you must consider the dimensions of the room in the equation. Are they large rooms, built to the golden rule dimensions?

 

[Another Johnson]

FWIW, I studied acoustics 50 years ago too. I took five graduate courses from this guy

https://acousticstoday.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/The-Story-of-Allan-D.-Pierce-Jerry-H.-Ginsberg.pdf

Great guy. Still counted among my friends. We’re all getting old.

 

[Bobvin]

My experience is like Wilson’s in that it is good to find a spot where the speakers have their best chance to work.

Bobvin and RH have rooms for different purposes. Bob wants his room to make his system sound its best. RH wants his room to be as neutral as possible so that he can more easily discern the affect of changes.

Bob wants his room to look great for him and his guests. RH wants his room to be fair to the widest possible range of gear, and the purpose is to listen, not to look.

It is natural to be proud of our purpose built rooms and to want to show them off. But just as we all hear differently, we also strut differently. What turns on one, turns off another.

TAS 50th Anniversary issue just arrived with my mail. I think a martini and a little Kenny Burrell might make it an easy exit ramp to an afternoon nap.

One might also argue that reviewing a speaker or component after adding some additional tweak does not tell us accurately about the device under test (DUT).

I‘d give more credence to the review where the variables were restricted. If, in a summary note the reviewer said the sound improved (being specific) after placing X diffusor or Y absorber adjacent the speaker (e.g.) he is now talking about ‘in his room.’ Any tweak is going to be room and DUT dependent, the playing field is no longer level.

Enjoy that martini, and the nap

 

[Swisstrips]

I too am a bit confused somewhat to the criticism. Robert had full design authority for a dedicated enclosed space (not a "shared" space) and he made it to his own spec (acoustically, aesthetically). To say that it is a missed opportunity is pretty subjective and a bit much I'd say. I'd also say his construction is way beyond most. Having a nice looking room (subjective) with some treatment hidden is great, but not at all the same as this type of project.

I think its an awesome looking space and if he wanted the acoustics built in / hidden, I'm sure he would have done so. His end goal may not have been aesthetically neutral living room look - whatever that means.

 

[Gregadd]

Have a visit to Chris at Rhapsody.Dallas. He has M9 and Alsyvox — room construction in the two rooms is essentially the same.

What specifically would you think needs to be different in a room for those two speakers, one being a sealed cabinet no energy to the rear, the other being a dipole no energy to the sides? Absent this particular specific element what acoustic problem might you predict one speaker vs. the other. (Keep in mind the premise of a well engineered room to begin with.)

They can sound good in the same room.Good is a relative ter?m.
BTW I would love to visit that room.
A sealed speaker is less dependent on the room.Absorption tends to help it.
Bipolar actually benefit from room reflections creating a sense of air and space.
My point given is the wide variety of speakers one would expect a reviewer to see, it is unlikely that one size fits all
.


they

 

[Bobvin]

Not as simple as that - you must consider the dimensions of the room in the equation. Are they large rooms, built to the golden rule dimensions?

Lets assume the room is large and built to golden ratio dimensions. Lets assume considerable attention to detail, bass attenuation, RT60, etc. Lets assume a combination diffusion / absorption (like BAD panels) exist on the walls. The room without speakers retains some liveliness yet speech is clear and articulate. A hand clap sounds natural but there is no ringing.

Given these assumptions, what would you anticipate needs to be done to get the most out of a dipole like Alsyvox (or Maggie) vs. the M9s, or an omni-directional like MBL or Bayz? How specifically should a room be designed differently for these speakers?

I have heard it suggested an engineered solution isn’t worth it (for sure not all acoustic engineers are created equal) because the design fails to account for the particular speaker. Because I have experience now with several speaker topologies I am keen to understand how the above described room would be more favorable to one topology vs another.

 

[Lee]

Lets assume the room is large and built to golden ratio dimensions. Lets assume considerable attention to detail, bass attenuation, RT60, etc. Lets assume a combination diffusion / absorption (like BAD panels) exist on the walls. The room without speakers retains some liveliness yet speech is clear and articulate. A hand clap sounds natural but there is no ringing.

Given these assumptions, what would you anticipate needs to be done to get the most out of a dipole like Alsyvox (or Maggie) vs. the M9s, or an omni-directional like MBL or Bayz? How specifically should a room be designed differently for these speakers?

I have heard it suggested an engineered solution isn’t worth it (for sure not all acoustic engineers are created equal) because the design fails to account for the particular speaker. Because I have experience now with several speaker topologies I am keen to understand how the above described room would be more favorable to one topology vs another.

Yeah, agreed. I think what some are missing is that with a good room acoustically, you just need refinements to get good sound from any speaker.

It's really about placement of listening chair and speakers and them tackling the first reflection points. Not much else has to change.

 

[PeterA]

I’m not trying to pose or flex. That’s not my style. If you notice, my aim is always to educate and warn others of the pitfalls of this hobby. I happen to think that dedicated bespoke engineered rooms is one of them. I have no problem with you or the road you chose to follow. With my knowledge and experience how can I stay quiet and watch others sink their money into things with little Return On Investment (ROI)? I figure that they are free to choose and spend their money how they want to. All I can do is warn people and that is all that I’m doing. You don’t need a bespoke engineered room to achieve killer sound and I have proof of it. That’s all……for now.

I’m sure that your room sounds lovely and that you will continue to defend and enjoy it. You chose it, you love it, you eat it up, even if deep down inside, you know that I’m right!

Carlos, what alternative would you suggest? I agree that your videos sound good. You do not appear to have paid much attention to the room or audio file acoustic treatments, though I may be mistaken. I once went down the path of TubeTraps. Based on your experience, could you talk a bit about the approach you follow?