Robert Harley's Room
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Elliot G.
Industry Expert
I quote Jim Smith simple words
Why do I need subs if I have full-range – or near full-range – loudspeakers?
You don’t necessarily need subs. But more often than not, where you end up placing your loudspeakers, no matter how large and costly they may be, may not be the best location for bass and for soundstaging. It’s usually a compromise and we all make them every day. Having subwoofers can allow you to have the best of both worlds. For me, it’s not so much about better bass, but about the uncanny realism that arrives from a palpable space produced from enhanced low frequency cues.
It's just another one of those great tools in the shed, that we can utilize for the enhancement within our hobby. There is no "rule" that dictates that subs are absolutely needed. That said, many systems could benefit from their use. Not many speakers are truly full range.
Tom
Yes. But IMO the main message is that many (most?) rooms are not intrinsically full range, unless we bring subs. Dips in the bass due to cancelation are terrible, particularly in rooms with rigid walls.
Then what is your theory as to why Wilson manufactures and sells Master Subsonics? Only for very large rooms?
The bass drivers in XVX don't total to a lot of woofage.
I have twice heard Master Subsonics sound great with XVX.
Admit it, Ron - you just replied to mtemur’s post so you could use the word “woofage” again. 
I have a theory. Two reasons: I think Wilson believes that the additional sub towers can help with the presentation in certain conditions. I also think that Wilson enjoys being able to sell another speaker product.
- The XVX can go very low frequencies — more than enough to cover all musical instruments unless you’re exclusively listening to organ music or deeply focused on sound effects.
- Fully integrating subwoofers with speakers is extremely difficult, almost impossible, due to the physical distance between the bass drivers in the speakers and those in the subs, which leads to interference issues.
- Extending bass response down to 20Hz or even 10Hz is largely meaningless and extremely difficult to properly reproduce in a room of that size.
- More importantly, adding subwoofers would require additional room treatment — and more treatment would, in turn, demand even greater output. This is because room treatments inevitably absorb not just unwanted frequencies, but also some you actually want to preserve. Room treatment never works only on a single frequency or a narrow bandwidth. In short, subs introduce new problems that didn’t exist before.
- Most critically, adding subs in this specific case would require an active frequency-dividing network. Introducing that into the signal path (between the preamp and power amps) degrades the sound. Even adding a simple switch can noticeably affect sound quality, let alone a complex dividing network. You can actually see the dividing network in the video.
I don’t believe Wilson thinks subwoofers as necessary for the XVX. If they did, they would have either included subs as part of the package or, even better, integrated them directly into the speaker cabinets. Of course, they might argue that they left them out to avoid driving up the price — but a customer willing to pay $300K for an XVX would likely have no problem paying $400K if it became a necessity.
So does the loudness switch on low volumes but that doesn’t mean it’s right. To hear really low frequencies in music it has to be very loud, louder than levels at home.
Admit it, Ron - you just replied to mtemur’s post so you could use the word “woofage” again.
Well, you are correct. I try not to miss an opportunity to use one my favorite audio terms.
a well integrated and time aligned sub system is a make or brake in my world.....
why integrate the sub qualities in the large Wilsons, when they need to be placed in other location than satellites?
why integrate the sub qualities in the large Wilsons, when they need to be placed in other location than satellites?
Elliot G.
Industry Expert
I was not a fan of subs in my past for a multitude of reasons. I can't and wont speak for Wilson as I don't know their reasons however I will say that for me a properly integrated sub is a great addition. I want to say this clearly that all subs are not the same and in my experience most are not great however most is not all. If not a sub that works with your room and system I look at them as a liability. They distract from the overall effect and draw attention to themselves and not in a good way. In a great system one would not know they are playing until they are turned off and there is a partial collapse of the sound. When done properly there is an immediate sense of space and realism that is not there without them. I have shown this to people even with a Hillary Hahn recording of violin and piano. I emphasize that badly integrated its a disaster and ruins everything IMO.
All the speculative reasons don't mean anything to me as they are just opinions and people here always have viewpoints that differ. These viewpoints come from small sample sizes, bad installations, improper set ups, mediocre examples of product and pricing. Subs are not a bargain as setting them up properly requires time and usually some serious money however when done well they are IMO a great addition.
All the speculative reasons don't mean anything to me as they are just opinions and people here always have viewpoints that differ. These viewpoints come from small sample sizes, bad installations, improper set ups, mediocre examples of product and pricing. Subs are not a bargain as setting them up properly requires time and usually some serious money however when done well they are IMO a great addition.
Wilson manufactures and sells speakers, not rooms. You can't ignore the room in this matter - some rooms need subs, others not so much.
I remember reading that almost but one or two pairs of WAMMs were sold with subwoofers.
To get more information on SBIR: Speaker Boundary Interference Response see:
https://gikacoustics.net/speaker-bo...HFqW7GzB28NAPJL2LNKAs1z0vqiB4HW7opVBNLOEz8OAl
I have heard a XVX system where the dealer turned the subs on and off a couple of times while a song was playing. "Need" is a strong word but you very much want the subs. From track to track you might get little noticeable bass or a lot depending on how the song interacts with the room nodes; but you will get a greater sense of space with the subs in whether you notice extra bass or not.
It all depends on everything else. With XVX whose strong suits are scale and impact I generally like the subs which accentuate these.
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