Robert Koda K160 Amps are on their way finally!
- Thread starter amadeus
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We are already using the K15EX...most recently with the Gryphon Mephisto...it is a sensational preamp. Interestingly a very similar balance to the CJ GAT 2 which we were using before...but just a remarkably more detailed, more dynamic and more grainless, effortless presentation. As described by Absolute Sounds UK (and a subsequent interview with Robert Koch), it is almost like a passive preamp particularly in its utter transparency...but with an 8db gain, it also provides significant drive (apparently for technical reasons that are beyond me...quite a bit more drivig power than '8db' might initially sound)...so you are also ensuring this 'passive preamp' has the drive, propulsion, dynamics of an active preamp.
So coming back to the topic, we will combine the 2 Robert Koda designs together. Interestingly, that will be the first time I have used the same preamp and amp designer in nearly 20 years. I used to have CJ pre/amp in 2000...but moved to CJ pre/Gryphon amp which went thru 3 generations of preamps and amps (from ACT 2 to GJ GAT 2, and from Antileon to Mephisto).
The Mephisto is now sold as is the CJ GAT 2...and we have been enjoying the Robert Koda K15EX for several months now. Very much looking forward to the full and complete combination.
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Lloyd,
Eagerly awaiting your experience. Since the unfortunate Soulution amp calamity of failures (3 x 701 mono amps in 6 months), I am now pressed into consideration as to whether to explore alternate "uber amp" designs while I enjoy the excellent Parasound JC1+ monos. . The Koda has certainly attracted my attention but I'm just not sure it's adequately powered for my Alexx V. You're experience with the XLF, which is a bit more efficient (93.5dB vs 92 for Alexx V) will be great to learn about!
Marty
Hi Marty,
I absolutely hear you...and I remember your situation very clearly which actually did factor in for me. My conclusions were buffered by the facts that:
- The direct feedback from a number of Robert Koda owners has been very supportive of long-term durability over the last 10 years...which is good as the company is relatively young in comparison with the likes of CJ for example. I have spoken with K10, K15, K15EX and K70 owners, as well as a more recent owner of K160.
- Absolute Sounds UK (importer/distributor) have also been an incredibly responsive importer, and they are clearly behind Robert Koda all the way having recently elected the Koda K15EX to their special Ten Collection highlighting the best of the best unique pieces that are akin to 'Formula 1 cars and specialist handmade watches'. Their support of Wilson, Transparent have been impeccable...and to really compliment them, they have also taken care of the Gryphon, Zanden over the last 10+ years even though they did not need to (since they are not the importers).
- When I say 'support'...I mean they look after customers who have acquired their brand products.
As for power, I have often wondered about watts vs volts/current. Coming from the Gryphon Mephisto (175 watts of pure Class A power into 8 ohms...and capable of doubling wattage all the way to a sustained 2800 watts into 1/2 ohm loads, with burst of 5600watts)...the dynamic capability seems insanely high for most any speaker including the AlexxV. That said, I have not heard the Wilsons with 1000 watts of power either.
If not for the Robert Koda K160, my other consideration was the Boulder 3060 Stereo (750 watts into 8 ohms).
As for the Robert Koda K160, I cannot say how it compares to the Gryphon Mephisto or the mighty 1000 watt amps out there. I have spoken with 2 people who have heard both K160 and Boulder 3060. Overall, my sense of the Robert Koda K160 is that while I am not sure it was designed to do the double down to 1/2 ohm load thing, it does measure at 230 watts Pure Class A power into 4ohms and has over 8 amperes of standing current in the amp...which is on the high side I believe.
I have a feeling it is capable of driving quite a number of speakers very powerfully very effortlessly. At a listening distance of 20', it means that with the XLFs at 93.5db, we could listen at an AVERAGE db level of 89.5db...and with a 50db dynamic range in the music (ie, -25db from 89.5db for soft passage and loud peaks of 114db) STILL be within the comfortable steady Class A operating range of the Robert Koda.
For us, listening at 20 feet and having an inplace 90db AVERAGE with 114db peaks while being able to remain entirely within the sweet spot of the amp's performance without calling upon any extra temporary peak dynamic range or amp headroom is more than plenty for us. Not everyone would agree, but for us, those figures more than stack up for us.
As for the 1000 watt amps, I totally get that the reason for them is not to get to 1000 watts...but because of the enormous headroom of the amp that 1000 watts should imply if well designed. The question is whether both amps (ie, Mephisto, Robert Koda K160) and big Brystons, Parasound JC1s and Boulder 3000 series amps get one there with a slightly different set of watt numbers. Honestly, I dont know enough to say.
I absolutely hear you...and I remember your situation very clearly which actually did factor in for me. My conclusions were buffered by the facts that:
- The direct feedback from a number of Robert Koda owners has been very supportive of long-term durability over the last 10 years...which is good as the company is relatively young in comparison with the likes of CJ for example. I have spoken with K10, K15, K15EX and K70 owners, as well as a more recent owner of K160.
- Absolute Sounds UK (importer/distributor) have also been an incredibly responsive importer, and they are clearly behind Robert Koda all the way having recently elected the Koda K15EX to their special Ten Collection highlighting the best of the best unique pieces that are akin to 'Formula 1 cars and specialist handmade watches'. Their support of Wilson, Transparent have been impeccable...and to really compliment them, they have also taken care of the Gryphon, Zanden over the last 10+ years even though they did not need to (since they are not the importers).
- When I say 'support'...I mean they look after customers who have acquired their brand products.
As for power, I have often wondered about watts vs volts/current. Coming from the Gryphon Mephisto (175 watts of pure Class A power into 8 ohms...and capable of doubling wattage all the way to a sustained 2800 watts into 1/2 ohm loads, with burst of 5600watts)...the dynamic capability seems insanely high for most any speaker including the AlexxV. That said, I have not heard the Wilsons with 1000 watts of power either.
If not for the Robert Koda K160, my other consideration was the Boulder 3060 Stereo (750 watts into 8 ohms).
As for the Robert Koda K160, I cannot say how it compares to the Gryphon Mephisto or the mighty 1000 watt amps out there. I have spoken with 2 people who have heard both K160 and Boulder 3060. Overall, my sense of the Robert Koda K160 is that while I am not sure it was designed to do the double down to 1/2 ohm load thing, it does measure at 230 watts Pure Class A power into 4ohms and has over 8 amperes of standing current in the amp...which is on the high side I believe.
I have a feeling it is capable of driving quite a number of speakers very powerfully very effortlessly. At a listening distance of 20', it means that with the XLFs at 93.5db, we could listen at an AVERAGE db level of 89.5db...and with a 50db dynamic range in the music (ie, -25db from 89.5db for soft passage and loud peaks of 114db) STILL be within the comfortable steady Class A operating range of the Robert Koda.
For us, listening at 20 feet and having an inplace 90db AVERAGE with 114db peaks while being able to remain entirely within the sweet spot of the amp's performance without calling upon any extra temporary peak dynamic range or amp headroom is more than plenty for us. Not everyone would agree, but for us, those figures more than stack up for us.
As for the 1000 watt amps, I totally get that the reason for them is not to get to 1000 watts...but because of the enormous headroom of the amp that 1000 watts should imply if well designed. The question is whether both amps (ie, Mephisto, Robert Koda K160) and big Brystons, Parasound JC1s and Boulder 3000 series amps get one there with a slightly different set of watt numbers. Honestly, I dont know enough to say.
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Beautifully put Lloyd. There are really 2 issues you cite. The first is reliability, Honestly, I have no concerns there regarding the Koda. Honestly, I would expect any really top amp brand not to have the failure issues I had with the Soulutions. For goodness sake, even a Bose is almost certainly more reliable, so I have no doubt that Koda reliability will be a non issue. As for power, you have again, provided good reasoning with strong data and have identified that the potential issue is not RMS power for most music demands, but headroom under extreme demands, which you will evaluate when you are able to do so while keeping fingers crossed! Great stuff.
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Thanks, Marty. I have always admired your attention to detail and technical detail as well. For me, I will only be able to give a non-technical 'I heard this' experience when we get there, but I do look forward to it...and I hope that in the end, the proof in the pudding will be whether the amp sounds as effortless at sub-1watt performance as it does during peaks when you might just be touching that 110-115db range for a brief instant to see if that instant collapses (we have all heard that before) or whether it sustains...or whether (as in the best cases) it effortlessly soars to the point where it almost does not seem to soar because it is so effortless. (Sometimes, when a peak seems to soar, it is actually because the system is straining and this is highlighting a sense the system has to stretch to get there. When that same note comes from a far more capable amp, the note no longer seems to soar per se...because it is so effortless. But at the same time, that is usually when the note finally sounds 'right'.)
More to come!
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They have arrived...playing around 4 hours or so. In every way imaginable stunning. The TEXTURE of violin bows is so rich in detail and yet it is clearly NOT because Robert Koch amped up the negative feedback to 'sharpen' resolution (there IS is no negative feedback anyway)...it is clearly because he has REMOVED noise, noise floor and allowed a huge open passage of limitless power to pass the signal through. (230 watts pure Class A into this load)
I felt extremely confident everything above 100hz was going to be flawless. The K15EX, speaking with multiple owners of Robert Koda as well as Robert Koda's K70...and several who have heard the K160 monos in Asia or in Europe. For me, it was primarily the sub 100hz work that I was concerned about after 11 years of Gryphon which is magnificent here with a truly earthbound foundational like quailty in the bass.
I am pretty confident I am going to resolve that the Robert Koda bass is even better in EVERY way. I am still listening and learning...and also know the bass will change over the next 150-200 hours.
...more to come...but this in every regard so far is a GREATER uplift in performance going from Gryphon Mephisto to Robert Koda K160 monos as it was going from D'Agostino Progression to Gryphon Mephisto (which I had in system when Mephisto was out and the Progression was the loaner amp.)
Areas of evident superiority:
- TEXTURE...rich in detail, a tapesty of bow roisin, etc.
- PURITY...while it has an inner glow, it does not have warmth. The glow is an inner light, yes...but the sound is effortlessly natural without any tonal glow which (while perhaps there/perhaps not with Mephisto) is not here. And I am delighted with the purity of tone as someone who has been a fan of Zanden (still am owner) and CJ and Gryphon for 20+ years.
- QUALITY HOLDS COMPLETELY TOP ALL THE WAY TO THE VERY BOTTOM...Completely the same level of purity, TEXTURE all the way to the bottom and from the topmost. In the bottom, the Mephisto is magnificent...but even the Mephisto does not manage to articulate as quickly nor as beautifully and effortlessly as the Robert Kodas. Wow.
...a blessing to own...more to come...
I felt extremely confident everything above 100hz was going to be flawless. The K15EX, speaking with multiple owners of Robert Koda as well as Robert Koda's K70...and several who have heard the K160 monos in Asia or in Europe. For me, it was primarily the sub 100hz work that I was concerned about after 11 years of Gryphon which is magnificent here with a truly earthbound foundational like quailty in the bass.
I am pretty confident I am going to resolve that the Robert Koda bass is even better in EVERY way. I am still listening and learning...and also know the bass will change over the next 150-200 hours.
...more to come...but this in every regard so far is a GREATER uplift in performance going from Gryphon Mephisto to Robert Koda K160 monos as it was going from D'Agostino Progression to Gryphon Mephisto (which I had in system when Mephisto was out and the Progression was the loaner amp.)
Areas of evident superiority:
- TEXTURE...rich in detail, a tapesty of bow roisin, etc.
- PURITY...while it has an inner glow, it does not have warmth. The glow is an inner light, yes...but the sound is effortlessly natural without any tonal glow which (while perhaps there/perhaps not with Mephisto) is not here. And I am delighted with the purity of tone as someone who has been a fan of Zanden (still am owner) and CJ and Gryphon for 20+ years.
- QUALITY HOLDS COMPLETELY TOP ALL THE WAY TO THE VERY BOTTOM...Completely the same level of purity, TEXTURE all the way to the bottom and from the topmost. In the bottom, the Mephisto is magnificent...but even the Mephisto does not manage to articulate as quickly nor as beautifully and effortlessly as the Robert Kodas. Wow.
...a blessing to own...more to come...
Thanks and yes...but a lot less long than Amadeus waited for his pair. The next pair coming into the UK I believe is also taken.
I was only referring to our online interactions
These are products worth waiting for. I’m looking forward to receiving the K-15 EX myself early next year.
/ Marcus, www.perfect-sense.se
Yes...that too! Quite a great thing actually...I did not know you were also going for K15EX!!! That is fantastic news! I apologize if somehow I forgot this! Remembering well all of our discussions...I feel highly confident you will truly enjoy it.
Are you also becoming a dealer of Robert Koda?
Are you also becoming a dealer of Robert Koda?
Great to read the K160´s arrived and you are enjoying them! They should be a fantastic match with the XLF's. Congratulations!
Did you have to get the Transparent Audio speaker cables tuned?
Did you have to get the Transparent Audio speaker cables tuned?
Congratulations Lloyd, they certainly are pretty magnificent, even after just a few hours the term 'sublime' becomes a little understated..!
I sense a late night ahead
Enjoy..
I sense a late night ahead
Enjoy..
Hi Micro, Pedro looked after us on all Transparent cables, and we also had a brief visit from Ricardo. Definitely speak with Pedro and Ricardo about them...as I have gotten to know them, they are entering that rarified world that is inhabited by the likes of the legendary pieces of audio we all know and remember. Beyond exceptional.
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