Also, there is a fine line between having a room that allows for hearing the hall reverberation on a recording, and having a too lively room that creates its own reverb.
In the latter case, hall information on the recording is actually masked by the room reverb and replaced by 'fake' ambient information.
Yes, I read that and understand it. Dryness never crossed my mind My comment was more on Ron‘s stated goal of hearing the singer perform in his room for him. That inplies to me that he prefers the performance to come to him rather than to go to the performance. Your observation is of the performers at the venue and the listener being transported out of the room.
I just commented that I think that is interesting. It is a preference.
Yes, I read that and understand it. Dryness never crossed my mind My comment was more on Ron‘s stated goal of hearing the singer perform in his room for him. That inplies to me that he prefers the performance to come to him rather than to go to the performance. Your observation is of the performers at the venue and the listener being transported out of the room.
I just commented that I think that is interesting. It is a preference.
Do you think it would make much sense to try to be in the recording venue when the venue was Rudy Van Gelder‘s parents’ living room? In that case, I want the artist to be performing in my room. If the recording is live, then I want to be there. Really depends on the recording, no?
Do you think it would make much sense to try to be in the recording venue when the venue was Rudy Van Gelder‘s parents’ living room? In that case, I want the artist to be performing in my room. If the recording is live, then I want to be there. Really depends on the recording, no?
I think it depends Bob. Whatever the engineer intends to create on the recording is what I want to come through. If they change the acoustic out of a garage, that is their choice and I want to hear that choice from my listening seat.
It depends on the information on the recording and where the recording was made. If it’s a studio, I’d like to hear that it is a studio. In this case, it is more likely that the performers will seem to be there in the room with me especially if it’s small scale. If it’s a girl with a guitar in a nightclub, I want to hear the night club and be transported to a table sitting close to the performance.
i’m just commenting on Ron’s interesting statement that he wants the singer to be performing for him in his room. He did not seem to qualify the conditions of the recording or the setting in which it was made.
Perhaps Ron will comment about this and how his system and room set up reflect his goal.
Are you saying that acoustic instruments and a singer's vocal range cover different frequencies and should be approached differently or are separate goals?
I think acoustic instruments and singers' vocal range overlap in frequency.
I'm saying that I solved my personal sonic equation for maximizing suspension of disbelief and emotional engagement for a solo vocalist singing to me in my room. Al's report suggests that my solution for my personal sonic equation on vocals also did a respectable job of solving for suspension of disbelief on acoustic instruments and on classical music and on jazz music.
Do you have the impression that ddk and I prioritize the sound of acoustic instruments over voices and that our system's sound reflects that preference?
No, I don't think that you and David conscientiously prioritize the sound of acoustic instruments over voices. (Although I do have the impression that you listen to non-vocals much more often than you listen to vocals. Is this correct?)
The comment about a vocalist singing to you in your listening room is also interesting. What if the vocalist is at some acoustic venue such as a night club, a church, or up on stage in a hall somewhere? Do you still want a presentation telling you that he or she is singing to you in your room and not that you are there listening to him or her in the venue where the recording was made?
When I refer to a "vocalist singing to me in my listening room" I am imagining either exactly that (Stevie Nicks is transported to my listening room) or I am imagining a studio recording. These would be examples of seeking to achieve "they are here."
If a solo vocalist is in a church or in a hall somewhere then I would want to achieve "you are there" (rather than "they are here").
With a performance in front of a live audience -- whether a solo vocalist in a club or a jazz band in a venue or a symphony orchestra in a concert hall -- I also want to achieve "you are there."
(I appreciate now that using "Stevie Nicks singing to me in my listening room" as a short hand for presentation would be confusing to the discerning reader!)
I totally agree Bob. Depends on the information on the recording and where the recording was made. If it’s a studio, I’d like to hear that it is a studio it is more likely performers will seem to be there in the room with me especially if it’s small scale. If it’s a girl with a guitar in a nightclub I want to hear the night club and be transported to a table sitting close to the performance.
i’m just commenting on Ron’s interesting statement that she wants The singer to be performing for him in his room. He did not seem to qualify the conditions of the recording in the setting in Which it was made.
perhaps Ron will comment about this and how his system And room set up reflect his goal.
Peter I think Ron is on safe ground ... just about every modern female vocal is very forward in the mix.. often alarmingly so
The Carmen Gomes album, Dont You Cry is a pretty good example of a well balanced mix. I assume they didnt mess with it after recording on one mic
If I have made changes I often go to that album to get my bearings
Cheers
Phil
The comment about a vocalist singing to you in your listening room is also interesting. What if the vocalist is at some acoustic venue such as a night club, a church, or up on stage in a hall somewhere? Do you still want a presentation telling you that he or she is singing to you in your room and not that you are there listening to him or her in the venue where the recording was made? If that is indeed the case, such a goal would likely affect how you treat your listening room. If you prioritize the sound of your room over the ambiance captured on the recording, you would want your room acoustics to overshadow the setting information embedded on the recording. In other words, you would not want your room to disappear, but instead to be clearly audible and to provide the backdrop acoustic for the singer.
Some of the room treatments I tried did indeed move the sound in this general direction. They absorbed much of the subtle, ambient information on the recording and did give me the impression that vocalists were very present in my room. They popped in front of me. It was a very high contrast type of sound with black backgrounds and that solo singer was right there at my fireplace singing for me.
I don't perceive the presence or the absence of the acoustic absorption panels as functioning as a toggle switch between "they are here" or "you are there." I really hear the acoustic absorption panels simply as shelving down slightly excessive exuberance in the 1kHz to 5kHz range. I don't hear them as destroying harmonic information or as converting recordings homogeneously to "they are here."
For me the presentation decision which helps me achieve the sense of "Stevie Nicks singing to me in my listening room" is the decision to use panel dipole speakers. To me that is the threshold fork in the road.
The presentation I hear afforded by dipole panel loudspeakers is the fundamental sonic cue I have selected subjectively to achieve for my ears the facsimile of Stevie Nicks singing to me in my room.
Al's report suggests that my solution for my personal sonic equation on vocals also did a respectable job of solving for suspension of disbelief on acoustic instruments and on classical music and on jazz music.
A great job, Ron. While I really enjoyed the vocals as well, for me personally the main attraction was orchestral music for the reasons stated, despite the caveat mentioned. I couldn't get enough of those tapes. Of course, it didn't hurt at all that in the finale of Beethoven's Ninth a quartet of solo vocalists sings which sounded fantastic.
No, I don't think that you and David conscientiously prioritize the sound of acoustic instruments over voices. (Although I do have the impression that you listen to non-vocals much more often than you listen to vocals. Is this correct?)
Thank you for revising your explanation. Your earlier comment implies that I set up my system to prioritize the sound of acoustic instruments. That is not the case. There are also lots of instruments that have the same frequency range as voices, so it makes no sense. If I’m listening to violin or wind instruments or voices, I don’t hear a focus on the lower mid range frequencies as you said you hear on my videos. That’s why I asked you if you hear this from all of my videos. I still don’t know the answer to that.
You seemed to set up a separation between my goals and your goals relating to what you call center of gravity based on your presumption of music preferences. I would simply describe the different presentations of our systems as component choice and set up. I want vocals to be presentated on my system to be every bit as convincing as you do from your system.
It is not the case that I set up my system for acoustic instruments. My reference is live acoustic instruments, including voices, which my skat singing aunt in New York City referred to as her instrument. I hear live choral performances every time I go to church and at some private performances in homes.
I want my system to sound natural with all unamplified instruments and voices. I listen at home to instrumental as well as vocal performances, both small and large scale. Many of my system videos are of vocal performances.
If I’m listening to violin or wind instruments or voices, what’s going on I don’t hear a focus on the lower mid range frequencies. That’s why I asked you if you hear this from all of my videos. I still don’t know the answer to that.
I did not mean to avoid answering. I just don't know the answer off the top of my head. I would have to re-listen to a group of your videos.
I would have a much better sense if you recorded some of the pop stuff I am familiar with such as a Fleetwood Mac track, or an Eagles track or Anette's "Liberty" song. (You know my personal philosophy on the videos is that if I am not intimately familiar with how the song sounds on my system, and, preferably, on multiple systems, then I think listening to it recorded on an unfamiliar system in a vacuum has almost no meaning.)
I did not mean to avoid answering. I just don't know the answer off the top of my head. I would have to re-listen to a group of your videos.
I would have a much better sense if you recorded some of the pop stuff I am familiar with such as a Fleetwood Mac track, or an Eagles track or Anette's "Liberty" song. (You know my personal philosophy on the videos is that if I am not intimately familiar with how the song sounds on my system, and, preferably, on multiple systems, then I think listening to it in a vacuum has almost no meaning.)
oh, I thought your comment was very recent so you were referring to specific videos. If you no longer sure of the comment you made, then disregard all my questions. I’ll just move on as there’s nothing to discuss.
I don’t have any of the pop music that you prefer. This comment tells me your reference is the sound of these recordings on an audio system. If you can’t judge a system video of an unfamiliar recording, especially one without a pop voice, then I think we should just move on from this discussion.
Do you think it would make much sense to try to be in the recording venue when the venue was Rudy Van Gelder‘s parents’ living room? In that case, I want the artist to be performing in my room. If the recording is live, then I want to be there. Really depends on the recording, no?
If our purist audiophiles dreamed about half the tricks Rudy Van Gelder used in his great recordings they would put his recordings in the Index Librorum Prohibitorum ...
Ron, I’m only asking the questions because you made a comment about my system videos which I did not understand. The follow-up questions were simply my attempt to understand your explanation and various posts. I don’t think my questions are about the philosophical or intellectual aspects of the hobby. I will leave those to our professor friend in Portugal.
Ron, I’m only asking the questions because you made a comment about my system videos which I did not understand. The follow-up questions were simply my attempt to understand your explanation and various posts. I don’t think my questions are about the philosophical or intellectual aspects of the hobby. I will leave those to our professor friend in Portugal.
Assuming you are addressing me, I do not remember addressing any philosophical aspect of this hobby. And sorry, if we take away all the intellectual aspects of the hobby, there is little of real interest to discuss concerning the high-end stereo.
(...) For me the presentation decision which helps me achieve the sense of "Stevie Nicks singing to me in my listening room" is the decision to use panel dipole speakers. To me that is the threshold fork in the road.
The presentation I hear afforded by dipole panel loudspeakers is the fundamental sonic cue I have selected subjectively to achieve for my ears the facsimile of Stevie Nicks singing to me in my room.
