Ron’s New System

[MadFloyd]

Very nice report, Lloyd. Having heard Ron's system a month ago (almost to the day) over the course of a few days I have plenty of context and enjoyed reading your thoughts.

 

[PeterA]

It’s all good to visit Ron’s system as part of a learning process and audio get together fun. But just in terms of evaluation, Ron is not a digital person. His digital set up is very basic and he has made no attempt to optimize it. So visiting him to evaluate with CDs and streaming will not allow people to evaluate his system as it should be set up, for analog. Sure it will be fun and you might pick up something new, like planning for a future move to tape. So readers should also keep that in mind while reading reviews

I keep reading that people set up their systems differently for analog and digital. I don’t question that or criticize the approach. However, the best system I have heard was not set up for a specific format, and it presented the best analog and digital I’ve ever heard. I’m sure I need to get out more.

I am curious about Ron’s thinking on this topic. He makes a strong argument for him at least that speaker choice reflects genre preference. He is certainly an analog guy, both tape and vinyl, so I wonder if Ron specifically set his system up for analogue playback. And if so, how did that manifest itself in the choices he made regarding things like speaker set up, acoustic treatments, power etc.

It is also interesting that both Al and Lloyd have specific listening perspectives and they affect audio decisions. Former member Ack prefers first row upper balcony but he prefers a much more immediate presentation at home refl cited in many preferred recordings.

Perhaps Ron can tell us a little bit more about the listening perspective he prefers when hearing live music and how or if that relates to his specific set up decisions in his room.

 

[bonzo75]

I keep reading that people set up their systems differently for analog and digital.

Very simply, just the gain/impedance match can be optimised for only one. Have you not heard a TT set up that lacks enerhy and drive? Either cartridge is not matched properly with the phono, or phono with preamp, because maybe when the ghuy auditioned the preamp he did so choosing it with digital. Or vice versa. I can make a DHT Lampi go from energetic to wimpy with the change of a valve, because different valves have different outputs in the Lampi. So if an analog guy does not care for his digital, he might optimize it. That said, Ron clearly got a very basic dac. The other thing is he has no interest in optimizing source. Surely you will note that playing from a good CD player or server vs just plugging in from a laptop will make a big difference to sonics.

Additionally there are other points of quality of recordings you use for audition that can drive your preference

I am curious about Ron’s thinking on this topic. He makes a strong argument for him at least that speaker choice reflects genre preference. He is certainly an analog guy, both tape and vinyl, so I wonder if Ron specifically set his system up for analogue playback.

Ron did his auditioning on analog - so if he changed something or chose something, logically it would be because of the synergy with his analog chain and/or tape chain,

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

I think this theory about optimizing for digital or vinyl is utter BS!
when a system is set up correctly, it doesn´t favour any spesific type of source and they should all have same tonal character
if not, you´re way out over your head IMNSHO

 

[bonzo75]

I think this theory about optimizing for digital or vinyl is utter BS!
when a system is set up correctly, it doesn´t favour any spesific type of source and they should all have same tonal character
if not, you´re way out over your head IMNSHO

How? if you set up with vinyl and just plug in a Dac, and play with a bad source it won’t make a difference to improving your source and matching the Dac to preamp?

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

I mean if sources are from same level, if even possible with digital compared to analogue....

 

[bonzo75]

I mean if sources are from same level, if even possible with digital compared to analogue....

Ron always clearly showed no interest in making the sources same level.

 

[PeterA]

Very simply, just the gain/impedance match can be optimised for only one. Have you not heard a TT set up that lacks enerhy and drive? Either cartridge is not matched properly with the phono, or phono with preamp, because maybe when the ghuy auditioned the preamp he did so choosing it with digital. Or vice versa. I can make a DHT Lampi go from energetic to wimpy with the change of a valve, because different valves have different outputs in the Lampi. So if an analog guy does not care for his digital, he might optimize it. That said, Ron clearly got a very basic dac. The other thing is he has no interest in optimizing source. Surely you will note that playing from a good CD player or server vs just plugging in from a laptop will make a big difference to sonics.

Additionally there are other points of quality of recordings you use for audition that can drive your preference


Ron did his auditioning on analog - so if he changed something or chose something, logically it would be because of the synergy with his analog chain and/or tape chain,

You seem to be basing all of this on the basic premise that a system is set up for one or the other. I’m not sure that premise is correct. Did Ron audition the Pendragon‘s with analog? I don’t remember that detail. Regardless, I am interested in set up choices Ron has made and whether or not they are in preference of one or the other and if it even matters. I’m not talking about matching gain between preamp and amp. I am interested in whether or not Ron set up his speakers, electrical infrastructure, room acoustics and things like cable choices based on analog or digital. I presume it is analog because that’s his preferred format, but would it be any different for digital, and is digital compromised because of this in his system. I don’t recall reading about any of that in this long thread.

People on different threads here suggest that in some cases digital and analog sound very close to each other. Those reports are based on hearing both formats in the same system. That seems to suggest that maybe speaker set up and room acoustics and power delivery decisions do not depend on the format.

Anyway, Ron may decide to share his thoughts on this subject regarding his system set up decisions.

 

[bonzo75]

You seem to be basing all of this on the basic premise that a system is set up for one or the other. I’m not sure that premise is correct. Did Ron audition the Pendragon‘s with analog?

Ron did all his auditions only with analog while choosing his speaker. Even later when he visited guys like Jeroen and Mike he seldom, if at all listened to their digital. In fact iirc his first speaker audition that was purely digital was the recent Clarisys. He did do the trio back in 2015 or 16 when he joined me as I was then auditioning on digital, and when I had pushed him into listening to Henk's Grands which were digital only, but he always preferred vinyl auditions.

 

[bonzo75]

You seem to be basing all of this on the basic premise that a system is set up for one or the other.

I think you are referring to micro's argument that system is set up for one or the other and that digital can sound equal to analog if set up well. I am not saying that at all. I am saying if a system is NOT set up for one - which in this case is quite apparent - why would you audition it on that media?

 

[PeterA]

I think you are referring to micro's argument that system is set up for one or the other and that digital can sound equal to analog if set up well. I am not saying that at all. I am saying if a system is NOT set up for one - which in this case is quite apparent - why would you audition it on that media?

yes I understand your point, I’m just saying that I’ve heard systems that sound good on both and were not set up specifically for one or the other.

Are you saying that Ron did not set up his system to listen to digital because his digital source is not equivalent to his vital source so why audition his system and pass judgment based on digital? Is this what Lloyd said he did? Perhaps I misunderstand you about the point of Al and Lloyd both being digital guys auditioning Ron‘s system on vinyl. I don’t see a problem with that.

Now, I have a preference for vinyl and I tend to take my records around when listening to other systems. However, some systems like Ian’s, have both sources, and the system presentation is fairly consistent through both and we listen to and enjoy both, although I prefer vinyl.

 

[bonzo75]

Are you saying that Ron did not set up his system to listen to digital because his digital source is not equivalent to his vital source so why audition his system and pass judgment based on digital? Is this what Lloyd said he did?

No why would Lloyd say that Ron himself has said many times he is not interested in setting up for digital he has a basic digital set up so Tinka or some visitors can listen a bit if they want to.

Perhaps I misunderstand you about the point of Al and Lloyd both being digital guys auditioning Ron‘s system on vinyl. I don’t see a problem with that.

I asked Lloyd what he auditioned on and on which, if 1, or all 3, did he get the impressions he mentioned (which I quoted).

If those impressions are on all 3, then it is an amp problem. If his impression is on digital, but not on vinyl or tape, then it is a digital source not optimized problem.

 

[PeterA]

Moving on…

 

[cjfrbw]

LOL! Ron: "You know, I'm standing right here."

 

[Audiohertz2]

Hey Ron,

Thank you and Tinka again for your gracious hospitality. Now, as promised, my thoughts on your system.

0. Overall
Overall, it is clear to me that you have set out with a goal of having it all. And with perhaps a personal focus on a combination of electrostatic like clarity/transparency with a midrange vocal beauty and then ultimately a combination of scale and slam to give you “everything”.

My entire takeaway can be summarized this: you have an ear, a room and a series of electronic masterpieces few will ever hear let alone own or have. I really learned something about speaker and system resolve and articulation and can see you have played to your panel’s strengths there. Really spectacular.

It is the obsessional set up and tweaking (not necessarily equipment gidget gadget tweak but placement, treatments, etc) where I think you equipment is so good I think you can continue to take your sound even further…potentially a lot further.

1. You
Your ear matters infinitely more than mine. I have heard your system once (a privilege)…but it’s your system. I believe your tastes are as above. I take that somewhat into consideration but also share my own personal bias because i admit mine were not always mine to start…I adopted tastes after hearing systems with other priorities.

2. Your Electronics
Exceptional. I have not one critically bad thing to say about the Pendragons and sense your sources are immaculate. The Pendragons have tremendous capabilities and do seem as perfect a fit for you as one could possibly imagine.

Your amps I sense do great justice to your ear’s search for sound you like…but when you have established your final tweaked set up…I sense you could well find additional amps to consider that go further down your road.

3. Your set up
Here is where I somehow came in and felt intuitively there was more your system is capable of. But it also based on personal taste.

I am a first row balcony guy. Definitely not orchestra first row.

Your system is orchestra first row…I felt close to the speakers and found that on hard left and right splits in (I think) the keyboard…the music instantaneously went left and right. Immersive to your left and right until hard left and right…but less so around you and deep in front of you.

Intuitively not knowing your room at all, I felt like I either wanted to sit further back or bring the panels closer together or angle in. I recall you did not like them toed in.

I also feel like the room being very empty has created that vacuum where it has led you to wall treatments. I have heard rooms with bookshelves and plants in them…and somehow think there is a more natural control over sound and space that a lived in space can give to a room where it does not need as much treatment. Or if you want to go treatment only, then it needs to be obsessively arranged a la Mike L.

On the amps, you have plenty of grip to deliver great sound but I have now heard a few super amps…and I have to say, what they do with super speakers like yours is nothing short of magic. There is something otherworldly about how great speakers react to uber amps, there is nuance and alacrity and effortless effortless like Horowitz-playing-piano effortlessness that you don’t appreciate can be possible…til it’s right there in front of you.

I think your Pendragons can do even more. More stillness, more music making with even less milli-movement shimmer during crescendos.

Purely instinct. I think your amps give you wonderful umami flavours. But there is something in those ribbons which I suspect will react beautifully to even more effortless control.

4. My tastes
I think that the fortissimo to pianissimo of your system is potentially one of its greatest potential strengths. But I think for some reason the amps may not be making the most of this.

And so during crescendos it is all loud whereas I think there are elements which are probably pianissimo when other elements are forte…but the amp cannot quite handle the complexity to deliver that. And so it’s all forte when the music is all forte. Or all pianissimo. A mix of microdynamic shading and macrodynamic shading.

On bass, I would still love to hear what your room can do sub 38hz…I know it can easily hit that. It’s about how much air moves below 25-28hz and is recreating the actual sense of the venue's original space in your room. Your system is already capable of so much…what can I say … it is a personal search of the unknown for me to discover the undiscovered country of subterranean phenomena. Not ordinary 35hz bass but the special elements and foundational elements that both live below 35hz down to 15hz or so. Your room is big enough to hold it and pressurize the air (not pressurize the room sound-wise) but literally shimmer the air around you.

5. My own ideas
You have one of the most beautifully resolving systems I have heard. Truly.

It deserves to breathe a bit more to be able to share a musical presentation that gives the listener the sense of venue and space to which he is being transported. That is potentially where if you like sitting further back it can help create greater sense of space and also allow the ear to discern space better than being all upfront

I think your magical Jadis amps are creating the vocal and midbeauty you love. I hope you find something that can do that and provide your speakers with even cleaner power with even greater control.

I would love to hear sub 28hz additions just because that’s me. ( I do think your AVAAs seem to calibrate in real-time…the bass when we first started playing was different later in the track and different when we replayed it 11 minutes later.).

In sum, it was a genuine privilege to hear such an august all-out assault system. Full resolution. Full range. Full power. And beauty in its music making.

I sense it is so good there is even more greatness yet to come!!

Thanks for this Lloyd and its obvious Ron has entered the super system category, i do understand your description very well as a matter of fact it is exactly as i would have expected , that on high DR music
( piano strikes eg) The lower powered amp on the panels would be clipping , dulling strikes ..

Sonically sweet everywhere else ....


Regards

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I think this theory about optimizing for digital or vinyl is utter BS!

agree wholeheartedly.

when a system is set up correctly, it doesn´t favour any spesific type of source and they should all have same tonal character
if not, you´re way out over your head IMNSHO

systems ought to get out of the way of the music, and not cast a color or filter over everything.

the more i improve each of my sources, the more they sound similarly. if i have digital with coloration for whatever reason, yet my analog is linear, then that is the problem. fix the digital. yet, maybe it's more listenable if it has a bit of color. ok. but don't adjust the system to try and balance the colored source. once starting down that road you can no longer tell what is causing what. choices you make are influenced. how can you judge things? you have a series of compromises, each one discarding information....in the way of the music.

YMMV.

if that is what you prefer, there are no rules, enjoy. but it's lowering the ultimate performance non the less....and restricting system development.

if i'm going to use digital reference tracks to tune my room, with occasional analog tracks just to check, then all the sources need to be cut from the same cloth. no way around that. unless you don't tune your room......

 

[Audiohertz2]

It’s all good to visit Ron’s system as part of a learning process and audio get together fun. But just in terms of evaluation, Ron is not a digital person. His digital set up is very basic and he has made no attempt to optimize it. So visiting him to evaluate with CDs and streaming will not allow people to evaluate his system as it should be set up, for analog. Sure it will be fun and you might pick up something new, like planning for a future move to tape. So readers should also keep that in mind while reading reviews

So how would you go about optimizing Ron’s digital for his Current setup , what would you do differently ..


Regards

 

[Mike Lavigne]

So how would you go about optimizing Ron’s digital for his Current setup , what would you do differently ..


Regards

Ron would need to actually commit resources to improve the digital before he should even worry about integrating it. right now, it a 'place-holder' sort of thing. checks a box.

digital with tubes. check. visitors can play their familiar tracks. check. likes it enough to listen....sometimes. check.

if he wants digital that synergizes with his tape, and useful as a system building reference, he has a hill to climb. doubtful he has the interest to go there.

 

[marty]

I was talking to my Steinway the other day. I asked whether it liked it's reproduction in my system better with analog or digital playback. It said "come a little closer and I'll tell you" I leaned my head in closer to the keyboard. It said "no, closer, put your head under the lid above the soundboard near middle C". So. I did. The next thing I knew, it dropped the piano lid on my head and cried "You idiot! That's the dumbest question I ever heard. I'm a piano, not an audiophile. I don't give a damn how my sound is reproduced as long as it sounds like me". I apologized by playing it for two hours so it would finally calm down and forgive me for asking such a foolish question.

 

[cjfrbw]

That's strange. When I talk to Steinways, they always drop insulting gossip about Yamahas.