Ron’s New System

[gleeds]

Shortly before David arrived I set up a bi-amping configuration that is unorthodox. I've been cooking the woofers.

It took me only three decades but I have discovered the secret to my personal Holy Grail with planar dipoles. On my Studios I am driving the midrange/tweeter ribbon with Jadis JA100 (80 watts), and I am driving the woofer ribbon with VTL Siegfried II. (A line-level, in-line attenuator dials the VTL down to about 300 or 400 watts.)

Cooking the woofer ribbon relative to the midrange/tweeter ribbon ("woofer cooking") gives me below 500Hz the "body," "weight," warmth and impact I have always wanted from my planar dipoles. Dynamic driver woofers and dynamic mid-bass drivers have nothing on this system. (The Hyperbole Police have already visited me, and, after extensive questioning and their own listening, have decided not to file charges.)

For many audiophiles this might create an unbalanced frequency response. But, so far, I am loving it.

With this new configuration, I almost can't get David out of the listening room. And our mutual friend, Marc Meisner, also was enjoying it a lot ("the best sense of presence and 'corporeal body' I have heard in your system"), although I think he was a bit befuddled at the configuration.

Ron, I'm super happy you have found your recipe. I know you have pursued this passionately for years, and it must be rewarding to have unlocked the magic you have long sought. Have fun with DB.

I look forward to hearing what you have landed on soon. Now, as for the word "corporeal

 

[Ron Resnick]

Ron, I'm super happy you have found your recipe. I know you have pursued this passionately for years, and it must be rewarding to have unlocked the magic you have long sought. Have fun with DB.

I look forward to hearing what you have landed on soon. Now, as for the word "corporeal

Thank you, Gary! I look forward to you hearing it!

 

[morricab]

Shortly before David arrived I set up a bi-amping configuration that is unorthodox. I've been cooking the woofers.

It took me only three decades but I have discovered the secret to my personal Holy Grail with planar dipoles. On my Studios I am driving the midrange/tweeter ribbon with Jadis JA100 (80 watts), and I am driving the woofer ribbon with VTL Siegfried II. (A line-level, in-line attenuator dials the VTL down to about 300 or 400 watts.)

Cooking the woofer ribbon relative to the midrange/tweeter ribbon ("woofer cooking") gives me below 500Hz the "body," "weight," warmth and impact I have always wanted from my planar dipoles. Dynamic driver woofers and dynamic mid-bass drivers have nothing on this system. (The Hyperbole Police have already visited me, and, after extensive questioning and their own listening, have decided not to file charges.)

For many audiophiles this might create an unbalanced frequency response. But, so far, I am loving it.

With this new configuration, I almost can't get David out of the listening room. And our mutual friend, Marc Meisner, also was enjoying it a lot ("the best sense of presence and 'corporeal body' I have heard in your system"), although I think he was a bit befuddled at the configuration.

What do you mean exactly by cooking? I get you are biamping but do you mean you are bumping up the bass panel level relative to the tweeter ribbon as compared to the balance you get driving with one set of amps full range? That would probably give you a sound closer to the original Apogee balance…at least Calipers and Duettas.

 

[Ron Resnick]

do you mean you are bumping up the bass panel level relative to the tweeter ribbon as compared to the balance you get driving with one set of amps full range?

This is a two-way loudspeaker, so, yes, boosting the bass panel not relative to the tweeter ribbon, but relative to the midrange/tweeter ribbon.

In the three-way Auditorium the midrange ribbon and the tweeter ribbon are connected in the passive crossover, so I will be able to accomplish the same thing with the same bi-amping configuration (tri-amping will not be necessary).

 

[PeterA]

This is a two-way loudspeaker, so, yes, boosting the bass panel not relative to the tweeter ribbon, but relative to the midrange/tweeter ribbon.

In the three-way Auditorium the midrange ribbon and the tweeter ribbon are connected in the passive crossover, so I will be able to accomplish the same thing with the same bi-amping configuration (tri-amping will not be necessary).

Ron, it is nice to read that you are enjoying your system. You are feeding the drivers different amplifiers with different power ratings, but are you not also introducing different tonality to the drivers with the two different sounding amplifiers? You you here the signatures?

I have two way horn speakers, and I can attenuate the output of the upper horn above 500 Hz at the crossover by rotating a dial. It does boost the relative output of the woofer, but does not affect tone or extension. I may experiment some more with this effect.

 

[morricab]

This is a two-way loudspeaker, so, yes, boosting the bass panel not relative to the tweeter ribbon, but relative to the midrange/tweeter ribbon.

In the three-way Auditorium the midrange ribbon and the tweeter ribbon are connected in the passive crossover, so I will be able to accomplish the same thing with the same bi-amping configuration (tri-amping will not be necessary).

Were you finding the Studio to be somewhat lean sounding as it is balanced when driving just with one pair of monos?

 

[Ron Resnick]

Ron, it is nice to read that you are enjoying your system.

Thank you!

You are feeding the drivers different amplifiers with different power ratings, but are you not also introducing different tonality to the drivers with the two different sounding amplifiers? You you here the signatures?

By the way you wrote your question you are assuming that there are signatures to be heard.

No. I do not hear any different tonality. David does not hear any different tonality. Marc did not hear any different tonality.

I am not attributing much, if anything, positive to the fact that the amplifiers are different. (Yes, I like the Jadis on the top part, but that's just cosmopolitan personal preference.)

I will stipulate that the anxieties about different tonality and different "signatures" by woofer cooking with different amplifiers can be relieved simply by using the same amplifier.

For example, I could match the VTL Siegfried II on the woofer with VTL MB-125 on the top (substantially the same design and sound).

For example, I could put bridged Westminster Lab REIs on the woofer (800 watts into 4 ohms) and a single REI on the midrange/tweeter (200 watts into 4 ohms).

I have two way horn speakers, and I can attenuate the output of the upper horn above 500 Hz at the crossover by rotating a dial. It does boost the relative output of the woofer, but does not affect tone or extension. I may experiment some more with this effect.

I think it's great if a loudspeaker has this flexibility!

And a speaker like the Von Schweikerts with the built-in foundation bass amplifier also facilitate this kind of frequency response flexibility.

 

[PeterA]

By the way you wrote your question you are assuming that there are signatures to be heard.

Yes, that comment is based on your descriptions in posts about how you hear differences between your VTL and Jadis amplifiers. From that I assumed they have different sonic signatures.

 

[KeithR]

Yes, that comment is based on your descriptions in posts about how you hear differences between your VTL and Jadis amplifiers. From that I assumed they have different sonic signatures.

Yeah, I agree with Peter. I'd use the VTLs full range or get another set of JA100s to biamp on the speakers. If there is an issue between 100hz-500hz I'd look to positioning using the VTLs first since you know they have enough wattage. All this other stuff just adds unneeded complexity.

 

[PeterA]

Yeah, I agree with Peter. I'd use the VTLs full range or get another set of JA100s to biamp on the speakers. If there is an issue between 100hz-500hz I'd look to positioning using the VTLs first since you know they have enough wattage. All this other stuff just adds unneeded complexity.

I agree Keith, but the most important thing is listening and the owner Ron is happy, so that is great. I do enjoy discussing the potential issues here though. Mixing and matching different amps for bi amping is a bit unusual, but it is what Ron has on hand and he is enjoying playing and experimenting it seems. That is certainly a part of the hobby.

It sure would be nice if Ron posted a video with his turntable playing, but I understand it is not his thing.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Yes, that comment is based on your descriptions in posts about how you hear differences between your VTL and Jadis amplifiers. From that I assumed they have different sonic signatures.

I understand better now. Thank you for explaining.

Yes, they do sound slightly different on the speakers full range. But I don't hear these differences in the bi-amp configuration.

 

[morricab]

I understand better now. Thank you for explaining.

Yes, they do sound slightly different on the speakers full range. But I don't hear these differences in the bi-amp configuration.

I wouldn’t go with SS on the bass panels and Jadis on the mid/tweet though.

 

[Lagonda]

I wouldn’t go with SS on the bass panels and Jadis on the mid/tweet though.

Yes just go SS all the way !

 

[bonzo75]

Pietro did have JA200, JA500, and Krell triamped on Apogee full range through Levinson crossover. That would be 40 or so years ago

Then of course he transitioned to horns (with Yamamura).

 

[Ron Resnick]

Were you finding the Studio to be somewhat lean sounding as it is balanced when driving just with one pair of monos?

No. But I like it even more this way.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I wouldn’t go with SS on the bass panels and Jadis on the mid/tweet though.

I like the REI on the woofer.

 

[Ron Resnick]

 

[Ron Resnick]

On The Eagles Greatest Hits, a warm-balanced set of studio recordings with rolled-off highs, I had to lower the woofer temperature by one notch (out of ten). Once I did that -- whoa -- this set-up is like audio crack!

 

[tima]

With your linestage in a different room, how do you run cable and at what lengths to the two amplifiers?

 

[AudioHR]

On The Eagles Greatest Hits, a warm-balanced set of studio recordings with rolled-off highs, I had to lower the woofer temperature by one notch (out of ten). Once I did that -- whoa -- this set-up is like audio crack!

Is the Greatest Hits on CD/SACD or vinyl or tape?