From the owners manual:

"
Screenshot 2023-02-13 142035.jpg


What Genesis does by crossing at 100Hz is probably not advised for this driver (around 300hz is far better) and a notch filter is necessary.
 
At this level it's all a bit "personal taste" as well I guess, I have owned the Acoustat model 3 for years, owned the Apogee Full Range for years, owned the Apogee Grand for years, and finally the Pendragons.... For me, I preferred the Pendragons.
I'm aware (and won't dispute) that for others it may be different.
All good, I really liked the sound of what I designed as well with the RD 28.1 + woofer crossed at 300Hz with an Accuphase F25. I just note that it was a bit sharper sounding (zing if you will) than my Apogees or Acoustats. It did give the appearance of more "detail"...whether that really was or was not real detail or this resonance is, for me at least, an open question.
 
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I have lowered the woofer level from +4.0 to -5.5. Clearly, I was initially overdosing on woofing.

Every time I lower the woofer level the sound seems more balanced. And even 9.5 steps lower than I started, there still is more power and oomph than I recall from the Prodigys + REL Stentor III.

There still is a bit of brightness on vocals. I still am hoping that is ribbon driver break-in. I still need easily another 50 to 100 hours on the whole shebang.

It could also be, in theory, the power cords. Are Iconoclast Belden BAV power cords neutral or perhaps a bit lean?

The other confusing factor is that the Magnepan 1.6s are way rolled-off compared to these things.
Are you running your amps in triode or pentode mode, Ron?
 
So the Pendragons are new. I thought they had just been in storage.

i think you need to start reading his story again as you missed the beginning
 
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Not to push back at your design comments but how much of what we read on specs of speakers is true ? I think what they say and do is not the same
To say it is an absolute maybe be very far off. Arnie claimed a cross over variable from Mids to bass towers 120 to 70
while the mid to woofers can be true when I tried them at the higher freq it muddied the Mids. yet the Mids could under proper setup play at below 200 but on paper higher only.
The proof is not just measuring it’s also listening.
there are so many variables in using a given speaker then just going by specs
 
I used to run my Martin Logan CLS straight with no roe in. i experimented toe in. I never herd any duiffwewncw, Of course the Logans were noturioius for thier narro dispersion.
i think you need to start reading his story again as you missed the beginning
Ugh actually I have met Ron and we talked about his system being ins storage. Once you get something into your head it is hard to get it out. No Fault of Ron.
 
Curious. So you you want "grey black grounds" like listening close to a motorway, "high noise floor" like listening close to an airport, blurred sonic images and a no sonic contrast, as if we have a blanket between you and the musicians?
You know this is a totally false statement. Why waste the ink?
 
I am not advocation you use DSP. This is just a good read on what we hear compared to what we see on a graph from a mic input.

 
Hi Ron, just a little input from my side, having used the Pendragons for several years. With regards to the mid/high being too bright, I believe that that really depends on who is listening, and with my 60+ "old" ears it was just fine. However my son once told me that some music was indeed a bit too bright to his liking (being 25 years younger than me). The woofer level -in my room, and certain recordings- was set at 0,0 (highest) and -9,5 for some bass heavy recordings. Again, this will also be room- and recording dependent, and the good part is that it is all remote controlled, so you can adjust from the listening position. In general, the bass towers were set at -1,5 or so. "Break-in" is a factor as well, to my experience mainly with regard to the woofer towers. My advise is to get a couple of hundred hours on them first, familiarize yourself with the sound, and only after that start moving the heavy speakers around. Otherwise you may find your self pushing and pulling for the next couple of month, as the sound WILL change. (the good part being that you will develop a lot of muscle mass, without having to pay for the gym. OTOH, those costs (gym) are nicely included in the sales price of the Pendragons I believe;)). For initial set-up, I departed from a theoretical (calculated) location, also taking into account the Gryphon advise. Only after a couple of month I have made minute adjustments.
Han.

Dear Han,

Thank you very much for posting here!

I am very grateful to you, as a Pendragon owner, for telling me about your experience and for giving me this advice!
 
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What is the Pendragon using for tweeters, or is it running the BG driver all the way to its limit (18Khz)?

Toeing in might exaccerbate the effect...I would consider pointing them straight ahead as there is sufficient dispersion with this driver to do so. If you miss a bit of center fill, then consider moving the speakers a couple of feet closer together to compensate.

Thanks for these thoughts. Toeing in Martin-Logans never worked for me either.

Yes, the BG driver is used all the way to its up end and rolls off naturally. Air motion tweeters take over at 18kHz.

What frequency range do you define as "zing"?
 
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From the owners manual:

"
View attachment 104347


What Genesis does by crossing at 100Hz is probably not advised for this driver (around 300hz is far better) and a notch filter is necessary.

I appreciate your opinion, but I am quite sure that Gary has a strongly different opinion on this matter.
 
Dear Han,

Thank you very much for posting here!

I am very grateful to you, as a Pendragon owner, for telling me about your experience and for giving me this advice!

I think you need to travel to Han and Malaysia to listen to the Pendragons, so you have at least a sound reference you know you can achieve, and then you can deviate from it as you wish based on your tastes. But since you heard them only once 7 years ago, and do not have videos of that sound, your auditory guide to their end sound might have been corrupted by other sonic experiences
 
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Thanks for these thoughts. Toeing in Martin-Logans never worked for me either.

Yes, the BG driver is used all the way to its up end and rolls off naturally. Air motion tweeters take over at 18kHz.

What frequency range do you define as "zing"?
2-4Khz perhaps.
 
I appreciate your opinion, but I am quite sure that Gary has a strongly different opinion on this matter.
The designers did not agree with Gary. Especially for a large system that belongs in a large room where your seating distance is likely to not be very close nor are side walls, they clearly indicate a higher frequency with steeper cutoff. If Gary knows better than the BG guys (who also made the big Wisdom Audio systems) then fine but I would be inclined to work within the manufacturer's limits.
 
I am not advocation you use DSP. This is just a good read on what we hear compared to what we see on a graph from a mic input.

Thank yo for the article. I am going to get a glass of wine turn on Tidal and digest it soon.
 
That frequency range is upper midrange.
Ok, so what? It is also where our hearing is the most sensitive to slight boost. 4kHz is beginning of the highs and part of the presence region.


check out descriptions of too much boost in upper mids and/or presence regions. Sounds like a je “zing” to me.
 
I would bet the Pendragon 75 inch are different from the traditional BG 75 inch. BG said the were going to make stronger magnets without the beaming issue that required the notch filter in the newer (Wisdom Audio?) versions. You can see that the Pendragon ribbons are not the same fascia as the traditional BG ribbons.

I am not finding my pair (slightly toed in) particularly guilty of beaming, tizz, or brightness when run into the higher frequencies (I can pull out a card on the active crossover to compare). I do find that crossing them over on the high at 7Khz to foil tweeters increases the perceptible 'speed' of the upper, because the large ribbon probably starts generating sidebands as the frequency goes up past that point, giving perhaps a more 'congealed' high frequency. I believe the Pendragon naturally rolls into the tweeter above 18 Khz.

However, comments about older ears being rolled off to begin with might apply in relation to younger listeners and that would apply to me..

My guess is they will mellow with break in.
 
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Can someone post a link to
Ron’s speakers please

current room picture from this thread.

brochure on the Gryphon Pendragon (no longer in production so no current product web link).

 
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