Ron's Speaker, Turntable, Power and Room Treatment Upgrades

[Ron Resnick]

It isn't true, VTA/SRA location is cartridge dependent nothing to do with the tonearm. My setups are very precise and you'll clearly hear major differences in sound with only raising and lowering the tonearm by one playing card, that's how it is when you are in the close VTA/SRA range for the cartridge.

david
. . .

David, it is likely I am just not understanding you, but I am finding what you wrote here very confusing.

If one can "clearly hear major differences in sound with only raising and lowering the tonearm by one playing card" then doesn't this endorse Peter's protocol of adjusting VTA LP by LP? If major differences in sound result from tiny differences in VTA then doesn't it make sense to optimize the height of the tonearm LP by LP, or at least to have several different fixed alternative VTAs (16.0mm, 16,5mm, 17.00mm, 17.5mm, etc.) from which to choose on an LP by LP basis?

 

[Lagonda]

It makes sense to me that SRA sensitivity should be mainly a function of the cartridge, and not the arm. It seems to me SRA sensitivity should be significantly a function of the shape and design of the stylus.

So why do Lagonda and JeffT and others keep referring to the relative insensitivity of the 3012R tonearm to changes in VTA/SRA? Why have people tried to explain away Peter's protocol of adjusting VTA record by record by asserting that the SME V-12 tonearm is unusually sensitive to small changes in VTA?

My “other” arm is a wonderful tangential that was built for the Maplenoll turntable. It looks like the bastard child of a Eminent Technology arm and a Townshend Excalibur arm. Short arm length and a paddle in front of the cartridge is part of the excellent sound, but also the reason for the VTA/SRA sensitivitie.A little change in record thickness moves the angle substantially.

 

[ddk]

It makes sense to me that SRA sensitivity should be mainly a function of the cartridge, and not the arm. It seems to me SRA sensitivity should be significantly a function of the shape and design of the stylus.

So why do Lagonda and JeffT and others keep referring to the relative insensitivity of the 3012R tonearm to changes in VTA/SRA? Why have people tried to explain away Peter's protocol of adjusting VTA record by record by asserting that the SME V-12 tonearm is unusually sensitive to small changes in VTA?

It's not the tonearm it's cartridge!

No one's explaining anything away or disputing that very minor changes have a direct effect on the sound, there's always a change what's in dispute is the necessity of that change.

david

 

[PeterA]

I don't know about cutting angles or grooves pressed into records Peter and frankly I'd go crazy if I there was a need. One can clearly hear when the cartridge VTA/SRA is set properly, ie the entire frequency range is in focus and not just parts of it and standard thickness deviations between average weight LPs don't seem to matter. The best way I can describe it is that it's like a lens that you close down to it's optimum f stop and precisely focus on your subject then everything within that depth of field in front and behind the subject remains in focus. Of course the inverse is also true if one prefers a shallow DOF focusing on a specific part of the image is what's needed, it's how I see adjusting each LP to taste.

On the fly VTA adjustment is a tool to help with the procedure one still has to know the target to hit it, a knob isn't going to find it for you. As far as repeatability goes the cards are as if not more effective than any kind of built-in gauge I've seen.

david

Of course one has to know what to listen for and one can clearly hear when the cartridge SRA is set properly. I don't know of anyone who argues otherwise. I also agree with you that the whole range of frequencies is affected with changes in SRA and not just parts of it. I listen for the entire range and only when everything about the sound is better do I know that the setting is the correct one.

I agree with you about your card trick. I do something very similar and it will be effectively the same once I get my metal shims manufactured for me. The key is clamping down the armpost in the armboard so that that connection is very rigid and solid. I don't like easily adjustable offset VTA towers like that found on the TriPlanar for that very reason. But here, the designer, and the users, have opted for convenience of adjustability over rigidity. These is a matter of preference, and there is no right or wrong.

 

[ddk]

My “other” arm is wonderful tangential that was built for the Maplenoll turntable. It looks like the bastard child of a Eminent Technology arm and a Townshend Excalibur arm. Short arm length and a paddle in front of the cartridge is part of the excellent sound, but also the reason for the VTA/SRA sensitivitie.A little change in record thickness moves the angle substantially.

There are so many variables when it comes to airbearing tangential arms, everything affects everything else with very minor changes. Those old arms weren't even finished designs, they can't hold any settings and parameters continue to change during playback.

david

 

[PeterA]

Ron, the differences you heard in Peters system where with arm construction different from the 3012R. His arm is probably more sensitive to VTA/SRA than the 3012R. My 3012R is not very sensitive compared to my other arm.

This is an interesting theory. I have never heard the arms side by side in the same system. I think the only member I know who has experience with both arms is Jeffrey. I agree with David that it has more to do with the cartridge than with the arm, in the sense that some stylus shapes may be more sensitive to SRA and tracing the groove more accurately. I think conical shapes are more forgiving than line contacts, for instance. However, the transparency of the arm and the matching of the arm and cartridge may also be a factor here. Some arms are just not as resolving as others, or they have distortions and colorations which mask fine detail, so I can imagine that some minute changes in SRA are just not picked up by the vinyl front end and therefore not audible to the listener. Is that heresy?

 

[Lagonda]

There are so many variables when it comes to airbearing tangential arms, everything affects everything else with very minor changes. Those old arms weren't even finished designs, they can't hold any settings and parameters continue to change during playback.

david

This design does keep the settings. But requires a steady high air pressure. Adjusting VTA/SRA and azimuth is a pain and not repeatable for easy change.

 

[PeterA]

Within a wide range, of course if you set it for a thin Microgroove LP you can't go directly to a 200 gram one and expect not to have to make any changes but if you setup using average thickness LPs and do it right then you'll be fine with almost everything, even the extremes are still within acceptable target range.

david

David, do you hear a slight audible difference in sonics even at the extremes within the acceptable target range? If the difference is audible, this must be because the SRA is changing slightly within this target range. And this slight change is clearly of a similar magnitude to one of your playing card thicknesses. If the difference is not audible, then for that listener or for that system, none of this matters.

 

[PeterA]

That is my experience with the 3012R to. But it’s not like that with all arms, some are sensitive to a point where playing a 180g and thin record with the same setting is a serious compromise. My tangential arm is like that, drove me crazy for a while !

I hear this with my pivoting SME arm. Ron clearly heard this too in my system.

 

[ddk]

This design does keep the settings. But requires a steady high air pressure. Adjusting VTA/SRA and azimuth is a pain and not repeatable for easy change.

If you measure the airflow (not air pressure) from the old designs you'll see that it's not a constant, actually the only constant is change.The pump and the pneumatics is the first hurdle that they never quite figured out. If you ever come here I can demonstrate the effects of very minor changes to airflow to the sound of a massive turntable with 3psi of pressure, then you can figure the effects of high pressure air on a tiny light tube of sorts. Pumps lose their efficiency over time, some faster than others and another variable to consider. Like I said earlier discussing air tangentials isn't a subject I'd want to get into on this thread my point is that the changes you're hearing might not be VTA/SRA related.

david

 

[PeterA]

My “other” arm is a wonderful tangential that was built for the Maplenoll turntable. It looks like the bastard child of a Eminent Technology arm and a Townshend Excalibur arm. Short arm length and a paddle in front of the cartridge is part of the excellent sound, but also the reason for the VTA/SRA sensitivitie.A little change in record thickness moves the angle substantially.

This is all because of the length between pivot and stylus. The longer the length, the more one has to move the height of the pivot to affect the same change in SRA. That is why the same 1mm raising of a 12" arm has less effect on SRA than does the same 1mm raising of a 9" arm. Imagine the effect of adjusting the SRA at the headshell like on the Axiom headshell. Tiny motions have HUGE consequences. This is simple geometry.

One playing card change in arm height of a 12" arm like the SME 3012R is a very slight change in SRA at the stylus tip. David says this is audible with the 3012R. Whether or not one wants to adjust arm height to account for the tiny changes in SRA that occur when changing LPs is simply up to the listener/user. It really is that simple.

 

[Lagonda]

If you measure the airflow (not air pressure) from the old designs you'll see that it's not a constant, actually the only constant is change.The pump and the pneumatics is the first hurdle that they never quite figured out. If you ever come here I can demonstrate the effects of very minor changes to airflow to the sound of a massive turntable with 3psi of pressure, then you can figure the effects of high pressure air on a tiny light tube of sorts. Pumps lose their efficiency over time, some faster than others and another variable to consider. Like I said earlier discussing air tangentials isn't a subject I'd want to get into on this thread my point is that the changes you're hearing might not be VTA/SRA related.

david

No problem David. Let’s leave it for a different thread to come.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I see a tiny bit of progress today. The record shelves for storage of sealed/extra copies of LPs have been installed in a closet just outside of the listening room:

 

[microstrip]

I see a tiny bit of progress today. The record shelves for storage of sealed/extra copies of LPs have been installed in a closet just outside of the listening room:



View attachment 45394

Are you building a pension fund in LPs?

 

[marty]

Not sure I get it Ron. Will you have one set of shelves for opened LPs and another for sealed and extra LPs? Seriously?

 

[PeterA]

Ron is younger than you think. These are for long term. I suspect if he has 500 LPs, it will be 5 copies of 100 titles.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Haha, no micro!

Marty, when I bought most of my Sheffield Labs and Cheskys and Classic Records reissues and all of my garden-variety 1980s rock and pop stuff 20 years ago I got multiple copies of everything. So the open records and all tapes will go in the “equipment room” adjacent to the listening room and this closet outside the listening room area will be for sealed record storage.

Peter is correct. I have 3 to 5 copies of my favorite titles.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Are you building a pension fund in LPs?

I wish!

 

[spiritofmusic]

Ron is the Peter Pan of the high end.

 

[marty]

Ron is the Peter Pan of the high end.

I don't know about that. With all the flying he's done, I think it's Ked.