Sanders Sound Systems - electrostatic

[microstrip]

[FONT=&quot]Phasing are the time queues we hear in the sound. For example, at a concert we here that the violins are closer to us than the brass because their sound arrives at our ears sooner than that of the brass. A speaker needs to be able to duplicate this.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]-Roger[/FONT]

I do not think it so easy. How do you build your zero time references or the phase at the origin? It should be much more complicated than that and reflexions in the boundaries should have an important contribution in this mechanism, may be also the difference in phase at the arrival of sound to our years also carries some information. How stereo can reproduce depth always has fascinated me.

 

[Randy Bessinger]

Roger- first of all never wager in a scientific test. I beleive the person being examined should never have a stake in the outcome. A truly neutral listener would be more than willing to confess h/she hears no difference.
If thier is no difference in components that pass the QBC what is the purpose of brand loyalty? Why can't I just follow Ethan and get some zip cord and well measuring amp and cd player for under a grand and be done with it?

Rapid testing is not the way to go in DBT. I need time to listen and get to know the equipment. Sit back and relax in my own room and compare it to my known reference. My favorite recordings have sounds that I know very well. If there is no difference, I'll recognize it and be more than willing to admit it.


As always thank you for educating us in our quest for better sound.

I am unconvinced that there are any truely neutral listeners except perhaps those that don't have much interest in the hobby at all.

 

[RUR]

Rapid testing is not the way to go in DBT. I need time to listen and get to know the equipment. Sit back and relax in my own room and compare it to my known reference. My favorite recordings have sounds that I know very well.

Ideally, one would do both. Spend some time with the gear and figure out what you believe the differences are. Select music which best highlights those differences and then use that music in the DBT. Rapid switching should make the identification of any differences easier, actually.

 

[RUR]

I am unconvinced that there are any truely neutral listeners except perhaps those that don't have much interest in the hobby at all.

Couldn't agree more, Randy. Sub-conscious biases are insidious and I suspect that those predisposed to hear no differences are less likely to find any.

 

[Gregadd]

Nuetrality-You are corresct. You need experience to be a good listener. Experience breeds bias. I think there are those who have no stake in the outcome.
Rapid switching. There should be both the potential for rapid switching and long term listening. The one time I experienced rapid switching I never was able to compare the same portion of music. I would like to go back to the portion of music I just heard. I don't want to continue along the CD.

Of course DBT/ABX is still evil designed by the devil.

 

[terryj]

I'm glad this was referenced in another thread, I missed it first time around.

while long and hard in a single sitting, wow, thank you so much roger and angela.

I loved it.

all the separate posts from roger need to be assembled into a sticky.

Now, to test my psychic powers....second group greg??

 

[Angela]

I'm glad this was referenced in another thread, I missed it first time around.

while long and hard in a single sitting, wow, thank you so much roger and angela.

I loved it.

all the separate posts from roger need to be assembled into a sticky.

Now, to test my psychic powers....second group greg??

Thanks, Terry

Roger knows a lot of these topics are third rail kind of discussions with a lot of audiophiles; but it is very important to him to give audiophiles the facts. They can then make informed decisions and NOT be taken in by the hype and snake oil, that in MY opinion, has done real damage to the industry.

Thanks again!
-Angela

 

[Gregadd]

Now, to test my psychic powers....second group greg??

I'm not the only Greg in this forum, nor do I understand the comment. If you have psychic powers could you please give me this weeks lottery numbers?
In response to Angela's comment regarding "hype and snake oil" she is stating the obvious. The daunting task is deciding what is hype or snake oil is often a daunting task. for example many would take serious issue with Rogers' position on off axis response or "sweet spot." Unfortunately the competition for profit leads many astray ( No Roger I am not saying your position is profit driven.). Even those who are honest are often just wrong. It exists in every field of endeavor.

For those who cling to science, the human element remains a "maddening factor." The humans brains' ability to select what reality it "prefers" or to reject it altogether when it becomes overwhelming is fascinating. There are many who still do not consider psychology a valid science.
The inescapable fact is sound reproduction is an attempt to create the illusion of real music in the human brain. No matter what science we apply we remain dependent on the perceptions of the human brain to both listen and to communicate what we hear. As someone said "you cannot generalize to the specific." You cannot make a rule based on exceptions.The human brain need not be perfect to remain the greatest at perception. After all it was the human brain that created all the devices we used to measure. Maybe it's just pop fiction, but I read somewhere that we have only utilized ten percent of the brains capacity.

Finally, let's not forget this is just a hobby. No need to get to serious. If we make a mistake we can just sell our equipment and get something else. There is also plenty of live music available.

 

[FrantzM]

Gregadd

Human create tools to supplement/augment the control and understanding they wanted to have over their environment. When the human organs are inadequate for a purpose, a tool is researched and eventually created. We use science and technology in trying to recreate music and this is not in opposition to recreation or enjoyment or emotions.
The human brain processing of the organ stimuli is far from perfect and it (The Brain) has very early resigned itself to this fact. It created instrument to supplement its very imperfect perception of reality.

The better we understand the science underlying music reproduction the better it will be reproduced. Music reproduction uses science and is not in opposition with science. .. Actually the better it is becoming by the application of Science

On the snake oil , the High End is littered of such and we all know those which are and must learn not to be taken to the cleaners by these. Just in any thing in life one educates oneself so not to fall prey to those with an absence of ethics.

This said this is a very informative thread and I now understand what attracted me toward the Magnepan. By the way in the early 90's I tried to mate a Magnepan Tympani to a Quad ESL 63 .. Results were very good but complexity high, then I moved to a smaller appartment and that was the end of the experiment but Roger luminous explanations made me understand... Now that I am in a aystem building phase an audition of a Sanders product is more than warranted ...
Great posts Roger and Angela. Keep them coming !!

 

[Gregadd]

Gregadd

Human create tools to supplement/augment the control and understanding they wanted to have over their environment. When the human organs are inadequate for a purpose, a tool is researched and eventually created. We use science and technology in trying to recreate music and this is not in opposition to recreation or enjoyment or emotions.
The human brain processing of the organ stimuli is far from perfect and it (The Brain) has very early resigned itself to this fact. It created instrument to supplement its very imperfect perception of reality.

I would not say the brain is inadequate. The brain has created every metric and machine that exists. No machine can even come close to creating a human brain. Many years ago when I was teaching my self very basic computer programming. I had to "explain' to the computer and anticipate every possible error. Heck. The computer could not even turn itself off(infinite loop). It excelled at speed and repetitive tasks. It still comes back to the fact that a stereo system is trying to influence the human brain. Its' performance remains dependent on human perception.
The better we understand the science underlying music reproduction the better it will be reproduced. Music reproduction uses science and is not in opposition with science. .. Actually the better it is becoming by the application of Science.

Agreed. Although I think we already have a good understanding of it. Some are just not adhering to it. The question is who are "we." There is nothing scientific about listening. That is just a plain old every day activity carried out in your living room.

On the snake oil , the High End is littered of such and we all know those which are and must learn not to be taken to the cleaners by these. Just in any thing in life one educates oneself so not to fall prey to those with an absence of ethics.

I disagree. There is significant legitimate disagreement as to what is snake oil. I find no more present in the high end then anywhere else. That's why we have Consumer Reports, et al. Maybe you and I should start a consumer reports magazine for the High-End?
This said this is a very informative thread and I now understand what attracted me toward the Magnepan. By the way in the early 90's I tried to mate a Magnepan Tympani to a Quad ESL 63 .. Results were very good but complexity high, then I moved to a smaller apartment and that was the end of the experiment but Roger luminous explanations made me understand... Now that I am in a aystem building phase an audition of a Sanders product is more than warranted ...
Great posts Roger and Angela. Keep them coming !!

Visiting the SandersSound room is my top priority at RMAF 2010. I take a slight pride in the fact that Roger's posts began with answers to my inquiries. Thanks to Katchi22 for getting Angela to come here. I too hope he will continue to respond. Now if only I could get Dr. West here.

 

[FrantzM]

Gregadd

I had to fish for your repies through my post ... no Problem I will address them and move out this thread being about Sanders systems:

I would not say the brain is inadequate. The brain has created every metric and machine that exists. No machine can even come close to creating a human brain. Many years ago when I was teaching my self very basic computer programming. I had to "explain' to the computer and anticipate every possible error. Heck. The computer could not even turn itself off(infinite loop). It excelled at speed and repetitive tasks. It still comes back to the fact that a stereo system is trying to influence the human brain. Its' performance remains dependent on human perception.

I did not say it was "inadequate", this is your word, not mine.
That the brain is the originator is not even debatable nor did I say it wasn't either... thus my point that the brain created tools to supplement/augment its processing abilities. We are not at a point where the reproduction acts directly on our brains bypassing our extremely fallible organs , so far at least on thisplanet , Music reproduction goes through our organs. Reproducing the stimuli that lead to the perception is what our stereo systems try imperfectly to do. Equal stimuli = equal response (everything else being equal) . The stimuli is physical . it is sound waves not brain waves. It is something we know how to do however imperfectly. The more science understands how to make it to make the stimuli equal , the better the reproduction.. That has nothing to do with our emotions or whatever, that is why I say that the dichotomy is artificial; more of an argumentation artifice than a fact ... As for if a machine wil come to do as well or better than the human brain .. I sincerely don't know and frankly I will not be surprised if that happens, pure conjecture, pure speculation from the both of us simply don't know. Since I did not imply or state that any machine was superior to the brain in that regard you.
On snake oil you know what they are and how they can debunked. You can choose to state your disagreement it changes nothing that there are numerous products out there, some of them costing serious money who can't accomplish anything. That people buy them can be categorized under the same phenomenon by which some very rich people have bought the Manhattan Islands, The Brooklyn Bridge or the Queen jewels ... Scams are as old as the world ..
Back to this most informative thread ...

 

[Gregadd]

I tried to put my response in italics. It looks everything came out that way. Sorry.

Much of what you say is excellent academic discussion not requiring any rebuttal.

With respect to Snake Oil that is a highly charged term. I have read articles and looked the term up in Wikipedia. Like most such terms it has been misused to the point of confusion. The term was first applied to home remedies.

As you might imagine my problem lies not so much with the definition, but what products fall in that categ.ory I imagine that each person would have a different list. It might make for a fun thread.

 

[amirm]

Hopefully, Amir will sign up for that one with his experience at Microsoft.

I am doing exactly that (writing the principals behind MP3 and lossy compression).

In the meantime, here's some of Roger's writing on testing:

Lots and lots of good data. Much of which I agree with. And as before, a couple of things that make me cringe .

For example, the ability of a digital camera to produce detailed images is intrinsically linked to the number of megapixels in its CCD. If one camera has more megapixels than the other, there simply is no question of which one can provide the most detailed image. Therefore, you don't find vidiophiles arguing over this.

If videophiles are not arguing about this, they have been living in a cave . There is no worst marketing hype than that of megapixels and relationship to quality.

A sensor gathers photons of light. As you increase the number of pixels, you shrink the area for each "photosite." All else being equal, as you increase the resolution, you start to lose dynamic range and low-light sensitivity. Given the fact that once you go beyond say, 6 megapixels, you have ample resolution for most needs, going to crazy heights such as 11 megapixels in the small sensors of point and shoot cameras and camera phones, you are taking a step backward, not forward from picture quality point of view. And insult is added to injury in larger files you have to store and carry around.

Even a more advanced problem is the sensor resolution exceeding the resolution of the lens itself, especially in the corners. While semiconductor process keeps improving, optics is not nearly at the same rate.

I will bet $10,000 (or any amount the challenger is willing to lose) that he cannot hear any differences between electronic components that pass the BQC and are then tested under controlled conditions. I never lose this bet. So before you assault me, you need to stand by your convictions and participate in an actual ABX test. Care to bet?

If it is OK, I like to turn the tables on you a bit. If an amp was taken and its output level reduced to match its input with high accuracy, and then blind testing is done across a range of major amps, and in all but one case, distinct difference in sound is heard (again, between input and output of the same amp), do I win $10,000?

 

[terryj]

Visiting the SandersSound room is my top priority at RMAF 2010. I take a slight pride in the fact that Roger's posts began with answers to my inquiries. Thanks to Katchi22 for getting Angela to come here. I too hope he will continue to respond. Now if only I could get Dr. West here.

who is DR West?

hope this does not come off as provocative greg, why not that little bit further and take up the offer of an overnight stay?

And, NOT to have your illusions dashed or anything so dramatic, but just for a new experience give roger's dbt a go. (hey, just for giggles take your valve amp along to be used in the comparison!)

Find out (for example), IS there a 'valve sound' vs a 'ss sound'.....when neither amp is clipping.

If not that specific thing, just give a well conducted dbt a go (assuming you have not done one before)

I've hinted at various times in various places around here how valuable I'd find that sort of thing...you know jump on a bus and head on up to seans lab, that type of stuff.

See, this is what I don't get. Here we are, arguing behind a keyboard yada yada (general now, not directed at you greg)...yet at least in the states airfares for example are cheap. And it seems that there is quite a bit of comeraderie between members here.

Put the two together.

Start off slowly and gradually, but have a gtg where ONE thing is explored. Yet do it methodically and carefully. BOTH sides will learn something.

If I was a valve guy, and someone said 'when level matched and not clipping' it is indistinguishable from any other amp, I know I'd be pretty damn curious! Heck, the more strongly I held my position the more damned curious I'd be!! So if I did take up rogers offer to sate my curiosity, I'd either come away correct in my belief or I'd have learned something pretty damn big in my universe.

And what greater joy is there in life than learning??

Anyway, excited vicarious rambling over, even if greg you don't want or have the time to do it, I wonder if the general idea I have presented here holds any interest value amongst members of WBF, that you guys get together and learn???

Any results would mean we ALL learn too, even those unlucky enough to not be able to make it personally.

 

[Gregadd]

Dr. Roger West of Soundlabs Electrostatics Speakers ww.soundlabs.com
Allow me to follow my own advice and not fight the hypothetical. You have stated number of preconditions to try to pin me and others in. Via a polite invitation.
Said the Spider to the fly: Step into my DBT and I will prove it is a valid tool of evaluation. I assume you have no vested interest in the outcome.Y(Tube vs soild state )yet another instance where DBT is an end unto itself.
Just to quote myself accurately I never said that I through my amp the Moscode 402AU (a hybrid}was better or even distinguishable from the SandesrSoundsytems amp. I think what I said was it would difficult or impossible to pry it from my hands in exchange for any amp. I could of course form no opinion about the Sanders amp because I have never heard it.
If Roger Sanders wants to send me his amp free of charge for an extended review, I would be happy to subject myself to a double blind test. If there is no difference I may not need to DBT. I am more than happy to admit it. If I hear a difference in a sighted test than than I'll do the DBT.
Are you happy? After 40years and 34 years when I first encountered the ABX/DBT debate I have agreed to sit on yet another whoopee cushion.
BTW I'll have to pass on $10k bet. Finally even if I can't consistently pick the amp what does it prove?There are countless amps out there. I have no pre-satetd opinion on whether the amp is better or different. I long ago abandoned A/B evaluations as just a marketing tool. All my opinions are based on what sounds like music.

 

[terryj]

nahh, knew (no matter how much I tried to assure you it was not meant like that) you'd think I was trying to trap you.

forget it greg.

tbh I guess I was more talking about myself?? That I'd jump at a chance like that, knowing full well that others have different interests and desires...and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

what you call preconditions I call trying to be fair, non pre-emptive and trying to cover all possible bases...having no preconceived idea. Except that doing a dbt (which you constantly and continually rail against) might be an interesting exercise.

At the very least it would allow you in the future, when again decrying any value of dbt, to at least say 'I've done one, I have a little bit of knowledge about which I am pontificating'.

Just so's you know (did not predict I'd have to tie it down so hard) the use of valve amps WAS just an example, I may have even said that.

So, we know greg is out when discussing any sort of desire to learn about audio by holding some sort of gtg, I wonder where others fall on that question.

 

[Gregadd]

We just can't get by the personal can we terry?

 

[RBFC]

Let's please keep it cordial, folks.

Lee

 

[Angela]

I think we can all agree that this latest topic is a touchy one. In most forums, this topic would go down in flames. I have been impressed with the amount of "grown-ups" here at What's Best Forum. Even in this discussion, I see that folks can express opposing opinions and still remain mostly (said in my best Cartman voice - Southpark reference) civil. Better than I have witnessed before!

I think it would safe to speak for both Roger and me by saying that we really appreciate the opportunity to contribute and interact here.

Cheers,
Angela

 

[terryj]

personal??

not at all. sorry if it came over that way, nothing at all intended along those lines.

ahh, we could do with a LOT more SP references!