SAT XD-1 Turntable Debut at The Audio Salon

Ron Resnick

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Hey, one day I get in a La Ferrari.
The next I get in a Zonda. The next in a Veyron. On different roads etc. And it's intellectually dishonest to draw a valid comparison? C'mon.

Marc,

Respectfully, I find your analogy sloppy and defective:

1) You are asking for a comparison of merely one component among many in the audio systems. Yet in your analogy you are comparing the overall driving experience.

The correct (or, at least, the better) analogy for asking me to isolate the sonic attributes of the turntables from the sound of the overall systems would be to compare tires alone (not the overall driving experience) by driving each car.

2) The correct analogy to comparing the overall driving experience with a different type of part on each car is to compare the overall sound (not the sound of a particular component within the system) of the audio systems with different turntables.

3) I listened to each system weeks apart, not one single day apart as in your post.
 
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Ron Resnick

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Put it this way, I'd have an absolutely burnt in impression of the AF0 from a few wks earlier that would be dead simple to compare the SAT tt against.

Marc,

No, you wouldn’t. You merely, at this moment, think you would.

Consider how utterly schizophrenic you have been about reporting to us over time the sound of your own system.
 
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TLi

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Thanks for that information.

I had not read a reference to the demo of a prototype in Ron's report. Maybe I missed it. TLI, I'm guessing you were at one of the sessions. Could there be two different versions of the table as there will be different versions of the tonearm, one especially for the table, one not. Was there any discussion of release dates for any of these? Since the SAT table is hand built by MGomez, perhaps it will truly be a bespoke product.
In Munich, Marc gave me a good introduction of his turntable and explained his design to me. I am a SAT arm user and he knew I had a genuine interest in his turntable.

Marc wants something unique for his turntable, so he will make a special version of his tonearm to go with it. It has a titanium inner tube with carbon fibre outer wand. The cartridge headshell is titanium too. This arm will only be available with the turntable.

I have played with my SAT arm by custom made headshell and counterweight with titanium. The sound changed a lot, titanium is very dynamic and bright. Use it in the right amount will give a lively sound. If there is too much Ti, the sound can easily be too bright.

The suction will come at a later stage as a add on component. Exactly how it is done and whether it is included in the initial price, Marc had not said.

The Ti tonearm and suction are important components of the turntable, particularly they are sold as a package. It will be better for Marc to have the system ready before launch.

The same is true for TechDAS Air Force Zero. Nishikawa san has been mentioning the Zero for a few years before launch. The actual launch was delayed for more than one year. The response for Zero was quite different. People doubt the price, doubt the size of Zero, but no one doubts its performance. Nishikawa is a legend in turntable design with over 40 year experience. He has many orders. No one doubts his ability. Marc Gomez has a very long way to go in this aspect.
 
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Ron Resnick

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Thanks for that information.

I had not read a reference to the demo of a prototype in Ron's report. Maybe I missed it. TLI, I'm guessing you were at one of the sessions. Could there be two different versions of the table as there will be different versions of the tonearm, one especially for the table, one not. Was there any discussion of release dates for any of these? Since the SAT table is hand built by MGomez, perhaps it will truly be a bespoke product.

Marc, was pretty clear that he wants to produce only one (1) model of turntable. Someone asked Marc directly if he would make the vacuum hold-down optional, so that customers could choose whether or not they wanted vacuum hold-down. Marc said there will not be an option.

Marc said anyone who purchases an XD1 without vacuum hold-down will receive the vacuum hold-down system when it is available.

During the demo I thought the XD1 we saw is ready to be built as it presently is to satisfy a purchase order. I did not have the impression that Marc was showing us merely his latest prototype (other than for the coming addition of vacuum hold-down).
 
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bonzo75

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spiritofmusic

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Ron, my system has evolved over time. Comparing the SAT tt to AF0 is likely to be apples to oranges. DD sounds different to belt, at whatever price ranges you might choose.

And if you think one wouldn't have clear preferences for driving 3 different supercars in whatever circumstances, I think you're wrong.

Ron, I do read a lot into your words. Mentioning detail but not musicality is quite telling.
 

bonzo75

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Ron, my system has evolved over time. Comparing the SAT tt to AF0 is likely to be apples to oranges. DD sounds different to belt, at whatever price ranges you might choose.

And if you think one wouldn't have clear preferences for driving 3 different supercars in whatever circumstances, I think you're wrong.

Ron, I do read a lot into your words. Mentioning detail but not musicality is quite telling.

Don't give away the secrets, else he will make sure we cannot decipher his posts next time
 
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Ron Resnick

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Yesterday, during the demo, a friend of mine who used to have his Brinkmann Balance with Triplanar tonearm on a Herzan active isolation platform replaced that set-up with an Air Force One Premium and SAT tonearm. Both analog front-ends were on a top-of-the-line HRS rack.

He explained to us yesterday that the Herzan was frequently adjusting and had difficultly achieving a “lock” when the turntable was playing.

Conversely, MikeL and others are very happy with the NVS Wave Kinetics turntable on the Herzan platform, and the operation and functionality of the Herzan in that context.

My current personal view is that I would not place a suspension-less turntable on an active isolation platform. (I will be placing the Aesthetix Io control unit (a phono stage festooned with tubes) on the Taiko Tana/Herzan active isolation platform.)

PS: In connection with our long thread discussion two years ago about active isolation versus passive isolation, I posted the discussion I had then with the President of Herzan. See Post #47 of https://www.whatsbestforum.com/thre...forms-for-turntables.22658/page-3#post-440069

Note that 4) and 5) below support Marc Gomez’s design decision of combining the low frequency isolation of the Minus K platform with the higher frequency isolation of his footer pods.

I posted on March 6, 2017:

I talked at length today with Ann Scanlan, the Technical Director, President and Founder of Herzan LLC.

I hope I am correctly reporting Ann's advice and conclusions:

1) In general, stacking isolation systems is good: passive plus passive or active plus passive.

2) I explained the motion and vibration occurring on a turntable: the motor spinning, the platter spinning, the arm moving, the cartridge undulating in the vinyl groove. I explained twice the concern about the spring suspension of a suspended turntable "fighting" with the correction mechanism of an active isolation platform. I elaborated what we are concerned about -- that the turntable suspension is set in motion, the Herzan corrects that perceived motion, and then the turntable suspension is perturbed by the Herzan's correction.

Ann said A) the response time of the Herzan is very fast and, likely, a lot faster than the response time of a spring turntable suspension, and B) she does not see the feedback loop concern at all. She says the Herzan will absorb some vibration generated on the top of the Herzan by the turntable, but will not get into some sort of feedback loop from the movement of the suspension of the turntable.

3) Ann said that in almost all cases Herzan continues to advocate connecting the active isolation platform to the floor as rigidly as possible. I asked about the Herzan option to have a layer of visco-elastic material below the top shelf of a rack. Ann said that the damping layer -- usually Sorbothane -- might go underneath a shelf but would not go underneath a top plate. If for some reason a customer wants a visco-elastic layer underneath the top plate (I.e., underneath the active isolation platform) Herzan will oblige, but with only a very thin layer of visco-elastic material, Ann said.

Other than simply stacking an independent passive isolation system on top of an independent active isolation system, there is no sense in which Herzan is developing new products which integrate different vibration isolation techniques.

4) Ann said that, in general, combining isolation techniques will result in improved isolation (not necessarily twice as good, but better than either isolation system alone).

5) Ann said it makes sense to stack some passive isolation technique targeting vibrations greater than 1,000 Hz on top of an active isolation platform handling vibrations below 1,000 Hz.

6) I asked Ann if the still or vibration-generating nature of a component being isolated drives the answer as to the most appropriate form of isolation -- active or passive. I suggested that perhaps active isolation might be the best vibration solution for a still microscope, but that passive isolation might be the best solution for something like a motor.

Ann said she does not think of it like this, that the still or vibration-generating nature of the component being isolated does not necessarily drive the best isolation solution.

7) Ann said that filling up hollow rack legs with sand is beneficial to the overall vibration-reducing effort.
 
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