During the demo I thought the XD1 we saw is ready to be built as it presently is to satisfy a purchase order. I did not have the impression that Marc was showing us merely his latest prototype (other than for the coming addition of vacuum hold-down)
I agree. Not once in the demo was there ever mention that this was a prototype
My bad. Intrigued that this custom made Minus K is approx half the height of the one I had here. And that's incl what I suspect must be a thicker case for this version.
Passive beats active in that it’s never reacting. It just “is”. The Minus K is a particularly ingenious and effective device. It’s basically leaf springs in pre-bending mode.easily adjustable and super stable...
passive has it's limitations too. it's a 'soft' approach since it settles and overshoots.....like any and every other spring does inherently. active is stiff, since it can start and stop. yes it does react.......on a peizo-electric level.
that said, all active approaches are not created equal, and certainly not every turntable or floor and rack are active friendly. things like power supplies significantly effect the hifi system net performance gain for any active system. particularly SMPS's can cause more harm than the active gains. really good linear power supplies make a significant difference in active performance. and active only really has an advantage under 200hz, so any active needs to be augmented by passive methods above that frequency range.
i have no illusions that my response will change your mind about active. but i would invite you to hear what it can do next time you visit the Seattle area for an Event. it might change your mind.
Mike, in Post #148 I was careful to note your positive experience with active isolation under your turntable, in contrast to the report we heard yesterday from a former Brinkmann Balance user.
I had 6 weeks here comparing Minus K v Stacore v Herzan variant Kuraka under my tt, direct on the floor, about the most tricky test you could pose for analog.
The Minus K just never sounded right. Results may have been skewed in that I had to preload w another slab, and depending on what I used affected the final sound. I also could never get used to the wild oscillations set off triggered by simply lifting and dropping the arm. Even adjusting VTA would cause it to oscillate. For me, totally impractical l/t.
The Kuraka seemed a total success, reminiscent of Mike's great reports w Herzan.
But it was only on replacing w Stacore that the clear winner became apparent, and not marginal.
Usual caveats - my floor sprung, Mike's solid, and Minus K hampered by needing preloading.
I'm sure SAT Marc has the Minus K more sorted than I did.
Mike, in Post #148 I was careful to note your positive experience with active isolation under your turntable, in contrast to the report we heard yesterday from a former Brinkmann Balance user.
my guess is that separate free standing motors and belts are typically not active friendly (when the whole platter and motor are all sitting together on the active device) since the motors tend to engage the noise cancelling of the active device. we saw that with Christian's AS-2000 too. i would also guess that there are workarounds for that where the platter could be using an active device but the motor not. i expect at some point that will be tried as i have no doubt it would add performance.
we often see air bearings and air suspensions of various types for platters (air being a passive type of isolation) but then the motor is on the solid rack. that same principle is how we would see an active device used for the separate motor type belt driven tt.
with $200k--$400k turntables out there; finding that performance by using active with more modestly priced tt's is low hanging fruit as i see it.
Ron, interesting report, but I'm not getting any idea on musicality from yr mini review. I believe Mike Fremer said the original GP Monaco DD tt had detail and resolution, yet it didn't charm him. I've heard a few digital front ends recently that were uber resolving yet would be hard for me to live with l/t.
How was the SAT tt on the musical/emotional connection stakes, versus AF0?
IMHO this time you seem to have a point. I could not see yet any enthusiasm from our brave members who were at the presentation on the sound quality of this presentation. A nigh and day contrast with the reports I have read from the AF0.
Detail, resolution, transparency
All great attributes in a tt, or digital
But does being impressed convert to being immersed?
Certainly it did w the AF0, but it would be good to know how much magic the SAT tt cast in a general comparison (yes, even with a gap of several weeks).
During the demo I thought the XD1 we saw is ready to be built as it presently is to satisfy a purchase order. I did not have the impression that Marc was showing us merely his latest prototype (other than for the coming addition of vacuum hold-down)
I agree. Not once in the demo was there ever mention that this was a prototype
Steve
Your opinion on the SAT turntable compared with your AF0 would be interesting to me .
I have the AF0 non premium with the original SAt tonearm . Love it, in fact I don't think a direct drive can beat this combination .
I would like Marc to prove me wrong .
I could not see yet any enthusiasm from our brave members who were at the presentation on the sound quality of this presentation. A nigh and day contrast with the reports I have read from the AF0.
During the demo I thought the XD1 we saw is ready to be built as it presently is to satisfy a purchase order. I did not have the impression that Marc was showing us merely his latest prototype (other than for the coming addition of vacuum hold-down)
I agree. Not once in the demo was there ever mention that this was a prototype
This is exactly the point. Marc is presenting his turntable as a finished product. I agree that it looks compact and nice. It certainly sounds okay.
On the other hand, he made it clear that a custom made tonearm will bundle with the turntable and suction hold down is in the pipeline. There is only one version, ie one model. It will be sold as a package. I can’t see his marketing strategy. We all know we are not audition the final product. The sound will be much different.
In Munich, Marc gave me a good introduction of his turntable and explained his design to me. I am a SAT arm user and he knew I had a genuine interest in his turntable.
Marc wants something unique for his turntable, so he will make a special version of his tonearm to go with it. It has a titanium inner tube with carbon fibre outer wand. The cartridge headshell is titanium too. This arm will only be available with the turntable.
I have played with my SAT arm by custom made headshell and counterweight with titanium. The sound changed a lot, titanium is very dynamic and bright. Use it in the right amount will give a lively sound. If there is too much Ti, the sound can easily be too bright.
The suction will come at a later stage as a add on component. Exactly how it is done and whether it is included in the initial price, Marc had not said.
The Ti tonearm and suction are important components of the turntable, particularly they are sold as a package. It will be better for Marc to have the system ready before launch.
The same is true for TechDAS Air Force Zero. Nishikawa san has been mentioning the Zero for a few years before launch. The actual launch was delayed for more than one year. The response for Zero was quite different. People doubt the price, doubt the size of Zero, but no one doubts its performance. Nishikawa is a legend in turntable design with over 40 year experience. He has many orders. No one doubts his ability. Marc Gomez has a very long way to go in this aspect.
This is exactly the point. Marc is presenting his turntable as a finished product. I agree that it looks compact and nice. It certainly sounds okay.
On the other hand, he made it clear that a custom made tonearm will bundle with the turntable and suction hold down is in the pipeline. There is only one version, ie one model. It will be sold as a package. I can’t see his marketing strategy. We all know we are not audition the final product. The sound will be much different.
To be fair SAT's latest presentation turntable is probably closer to the final product - other than the custom tonearm and vacuum hold-down. The pictures show the speed control box is now boxed in a single billet magnesium alloy with SAT label, rather than just the stock Technics controller box.
I think one of the SAT's marketing strategies is to roll out the XD1 in time to compete with the Air Force Zero, as the customer base for these super high price turntable is very limited.
I have not listened to SAT turntable seriously, even if I had it will not be very useful.
We all know vinyl system is so sensitive, altering anything changes the sound. The tonearm is as important as the turntable when it comes to the contribution to the final sound. Marc was not using the arm that he intended to use, so no point to compare.
I look at turntable as the platform for everything in vinyl to put on. It is the foundation. Different designs have different sonic signature. Direct drive vs bent drive, spring loaded vs air suspension, single layer platter vs multi layer platter, those are the main difference between SAT and AF0.
We all know vinyl system is so sensitive, altering anything changes the sound. The tonearm is as important as the turntable when it comes to the contribution to the final sound. Marc was not using the arm that he intended to use, so no point to compare.
True but I beg to differ. At this level of arm development, a titanium tube inside the arm wand would very likely make only some variation in sound, not a make or break difference. But surely if you want to hear what the tt designer want you to hear from his tt you should get the arm he used when developing the tt. I am sure Marc Gomez has mostly used the 1st and 2nd version of his arm during this tt development until now. Cost benefit ratio of improving the arm further is only for billionare to justify. The Apolyt also has a very limited all titanium Super Axiom made for the Billionare with exquisite taste. If I remember correctly $60,000 after discount. Without this Super arm, Dietrich is still confident his tt sounds best and cover all the bases in technical aspects.
From one fellow tt lover to another I wish to remind people one thing. The more complicated the tt is the more time it takes for the designer to bug out the tt. How long did it take for the Apolyt, the Caeles and the Vyger to sort out bugs before they get to today's level. Ask Airbearing what it took him before his Caeles got to this level of performance and reliability. So be patient and prepare yourself to go through bugs when you sign up as a forerunner owner of these tts.
