Schiit Yggdrasil DAC and MQA

DaveyF

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Davey, I am not contemplating buying a new source for digital data, in this case a competent streamer ($$$ for real quality), and changing my DAC *) just for a few titles that interest me. For the same (or less) money I'd rather perform system upgrades that substantially affect the sound quality with which my entire music collection is reproduced -- an upgrade to the Reference 3A Reflector speakers comes to mind as next step. For the same practical reason I have never invested in SACD, and I am very, very glad I didn't get distracted by the format (I know others think differently about that, and if you're into multi-channel it's a different matter anyway). I have much bigger fish to fry than investing in 'unicorn formats'.

Again, if MQA ever becomes really mainstream, the conditions for my considerations will change dramatically. And then Mike Moffat will also have changed his mind and made the Yggy MQA compatible. There is no reason for him to do that while MQA is still a fringe format.

As for your 'boat anchor' comment, I'll best leave it unanswered.

***

This afternoon I started my music session with John McLaughlin's "Boston Concert" (2013). The first few seconds of the first track that I played, 'Call & Answer', already put a big fat smile on my face, the music and how it sounded. While I also played other things, I ended with the wonderful, complex and hypnotic sounds of 'African Beat' (1962) by Art Blakey & The Messengers. Of course all plain Redbook CD.

Once those albums are available in MQA, tell me.

________________________________________________

*) or in this case, supplementing it with another one since there is no way I am getting rid of the Yggy anytime soon

Al, I think we will have to agree to disagree on this particular issue, but IMHO Mike Moffat would be wise to consider MQA as a valid format that he should consider as a requisite for his DAC ( either in a future itineration or as an upgrade path). So as I am clear, having said that, I am in no way dissing the Yggy DAC. I'm sure for listening to redbook it is excellent and well worth its asking price ( even though i have not personally heard it).
Personally, after having listened to the MQA demo, I would not consider ANY DAC that cannot unfold MQA...just wouldn't. That's not to say that others feel the same way, and that is perfectly ok.
 
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John57

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Would it satisfy if he bought out a second model with MQA Decoding or...go and buy a separate decoder or DAC that does have a decoder in-built.

Is her listening and does he care? Has anyone asked?
 

Al M.

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Al, I think we will have to agree to disagree on this particular issue, but IMHO Mike Moffat would be wise to consider MQA as a valid format that he should consider as a requisite for his DAC ( either in a future itineration or as an upgrade path). So as I am clear, having said that, I am in no way am dissing the Yggy DAC. I'm sure for listening to redbook it is excellent and well worth its asking price ( even though i have not personally heard it).
Personally, after having listened to the MQA demo, I would not consider ANY DAC that cannot unfold MQA...just wouldn't. That's not to say that others feel the same way, and that is perfectly ok.

Yes, let's agree to disagree.

As for Mike Moffat being wise to consider MQA as a valid format and a requisite for his DAC, he won't need to do that as long Schiit's DAC sales are still sharply on the rise. Which means their customers don't care about MQA, DSD etc.
 

Al M.

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Would it satisfy if he bought out a second model with MQA Decoding or...go and buy a separate decoder or DAC that does have a decoder in-built.

Is her listening and does he care? Has anyone asked?

As far as I can tell from Moffat's (justified or not) strong opinions he doesn't care about MQA. At this point, he doesn't need to.

From their website:

Asked if there was any chance Schiit Audio might support MQA if it became the dominant format in the market, Moffat answered, “If it becomes the dominant audio technology, or even a very popular second-place format, we would have to evaluate it in the same way we evaluate other lossy compression standards, such as home theater surround formats, Bluetooth codecs, and MP3 variants.”

They would be very reluctant to:

Mike Moffat concurred, saying, “In addition to the market questions outlined by my partner, there are many performance questions (about MQA) that cause great concern. Actual decoded bit depth for both MQA and non-MQA DACs, claims of ‘lossless,’ the need for MQA to tweak their decode algorithm for a specific DAC (and their ability to perform this optimization on-schedule for a DAC manufacturer who might be, well, a little smaller than HTC,) the impact on the DAC manufacturer’s own proprietary technology and product development, and the impact on the DAC manufacturer’s own competitiveness.”

Link:
http://www.schiit.com/news/news/why-we-wont-be-supporting-mqa
 

Joe Whip

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If and when MQA actually takes off, full unfolding via software will be available as the final unfold involves a number of filters. I don't believe a MQA DAC will be required.
 

Al M.

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If and when MQA actually takes off, full unfolding via software will be available as the final unfold involves a number of filters. I don't believe a MQA DAC will be required.

As far as I know, unfolding is specific to the DAC configuration, but I may be wrong. If unfolding did not require an MQA DAC that would be a step forward.

Yet then the question arises again: who is paying for MQA? Licensing fees from DAC manufacturers then don't apply anymore. Incorporating it into a Tidal subscription pays nothing for MQA; the subscription is for Tidal, not for MQA. If Tidal were to raise subscription fees for MQA users from 20 dollars to 25 or 30 bucks a month, who'd want to pay for that if there's so few titles available? The relatively few users won't make the difference to pay for more and more MQA titles to be released.

Seems to me, the business model, if there ever was one, doesn't work. Likely result: another fringe format that goes into the dustbin of history.
 

rbbert

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There are some who think that the point of MQA isn't necessarily to make a lot of money, but rather simply to provide better sound at the listener end. And I still wonder about the "full unfolding"; for quite a while PS Audio was pretty insistent that hardware unfolding wouldn't work for them, but now they have announced full MQA compatibilty. Is that actually a full software decoding?
 

Al M.

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There are some who think that the point of MQA isn't necessarily to make a lot of money, but rather simply to provide better sound at the listener end.

How beautifully idealistic. Yet if the parties that will have to be necessarily involved in the distribution chain don't make sufficient money, the format is dead.
 

Joe Whip

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It is my understanding that the full unfold is a filter being triggered by a flag in the file. There shouldn't be any reason why those filters can't be in the software of something like Audirvana and the like. Seems like they just wanted to encourage new DAC sales at the outset. Doesn't seem to me that there is anything special in the set of filters being used that are really DAC specific. But I could be wrong. It does happen on occasion. :cool:
 

asiufy

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asiufy

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Read what I wrote again, and don't be literal. These audiophile downoad sites, they're icing on the cake. If somebody wants to sell that stuff, fine. But that's not the model the MQA consortium themselves are betting on. Thus, Forbes felt no need to write about them, simpy because they're irrelevant to their readers, and the vast majority of peope out there.

And seriously, nugs.net? 2L? There's far more at stake here than those two sites could ever provide.
 

mauidan

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Read what I wrote again, and don't be literal. These audiophile downoad sites, they're icing on the cake. If somebody wants to sell that stuff, fine. But that's not the model the MQA consortium themselves are betting on. Thus, Forbes felt no need to write about them, simpy because they're irrelevant to their readers, and the vast majority of peope out there.

And seriously, nugs.net? 2L? There's far more at stake here than those two sites could ever provide.

How was anyone suppose to know, "That's why you don't see MQA downloads," wasn't literal/accurate coming from a Hiend dealer like you?

Did you check out all these MQA downloads?

https://www.highresaudio.com/en/search/?title=MQA?
 

asiufy

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OK, for your benefit, I'll rephrase then:

"That's why you hardly see MQA download sites".

Better now?

There's 258 results in that list you provided. Tidal has probably 20x that many titles. I know where I'm getting my MQA content, and it's on neither one of your download sites...
 

Al M.

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Very interesting (also in terms of language ;)) interview with Mike Moffat (sitting on the left) and Jason Stoddard from Schiit, detailing, among others, their thinking on standardization, licensing and MQA:

https://vimeo.com/194658219
 

Ken Newton

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It seems to me that, contrary to usual proper test procedure, the audio tracks used for comparison should NOT be identically mastered. Subjective listening tests utilizing completely identical tracks would seem to work to obscure whatever subjective sound benefits MQA may possibly bring over RBCD or High-Rez, rather than reveal them. The MQA targeted version of test tracks should be mastered to optimize the signal time-domain, where as the RBCD and High-Rez targeted version of those same test tracks should be mastered to optimize the signal frequency-domain, which is how they are typically mastered for commercial release.

Time-domain prioritization is the primary performance objective of MQA as this reduces signal transient smearing. While the audible significance of music transient smearing in digital audio is debated, Meridian believes it is an major factor in unpleasant sounding RBCD, and to a lesser degree, High-Rez. That objective requires a format purposely engineered to prioritize the time-domain. Which includes requiring that the music be mastered to optimize the time-domain. Specifically, I'm refering to the implementation of the anti-alias filter utilized in mastering. The usual frequency-domain optimization of the channel leads to utilizing brickwall anti-alias filters (of which there is no choice with RBCD), while MQA instead utilizes a much more gently sloping anti-alias filter. The anti-alias filter slope has direct implications for the signal time-domain parameters, such as transient smearing.

By the way, while both RBCD and High-Rez are typically mastered utilizing brickwall anti-alias filters, the transient smearing via High-Rez brickwall filters is less than that of RBCD brickwall filters, due to the higher sample rate of High-Rez. The higher rate shortens the duration of the transient smearing, and might be the primary technical reason why High-Rez sounds superior (if only marginally) to RBCD.

Potentially, further complicating achieving an valid comparison is that unless those who are conducting the comparison know exactly how the test tracks were mastered, it's possible that any High-Rez test tracks were, intentionally or not, mastered optimizing the time-domain, thereby delivering the primary performance benefit of MQA, and with less loss (quantization noise) too. That also highlights the real performance benefit offered by MQA, which is that it offers a time-domain prioritized standard/requirement for mastering (and playback). It does not offer some new kind of time-domain optimizing DSP technology. This is an important distinction.

So, while High-Rez is capable of being mastered for the time-domain there isn't and industry requirement for that (to my limited outsider's knowledge) via High-Rez. RBCD must utilize brickwall anti-alias filters because the signal band extends close enough to the channel Nyquist frequency to otherwise risk signal aliasing without them. MQA does additionally include the DAC in it's time-domain prioritizated system strategy, which is an element of the system chain left out of being optimized with High-Rez even should it otherwise be used to optimize the time-domain at mastering.

Regarding MQA comparison test proceedure, I would think that a common master test track file digitized from the analog source without any anti-alias filtering should first be produced by high oversampling rate ADC technique. Next, the relevant files targeting each tested format could be obtained by downsampling the oversampled master utilizing brickwall anti-alias filters for RBCD or High-Rez, and the MQA anti-alias filter for MQA. Then, compare the subjective sound from each format utilizing their respective downsampled versions of the common oversampled master test track file.
 
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Al M.

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I just don't understand the claims of 'temporal blur' and transient smearing as being a clearly audible issue. Piano music seems particularly critical regarding transients, and on very high-end systems I have heard enormously realistic, dynamic and clean rendition of piano from RBCD. So I just can't hear a problem, sorry.

This 'temporal blur' thing seems just clever marketing to make audiophiles panic into thinking they must have MQA. A solution to a non-existing problem. Very clever.
 

Ken Newton

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I just don't understand the claims of 'temporal blur' and transient smearing as being a clearly audible issue. Piano music seems particularly critical regarding transients, and on very high-end systems I have heard enormously realistic, dynamic and clean rendition of piano from RBCD. So I just can't hear a problem, sorry.

This 'temporal blur' thing seems just clever marketing to make audiophiles panic into thinking they must have MQA. A solution to a non-existing problem. Very clever.

Al, I have no personal opinion of whether or not temporal blurring is subjectively audible. I simply haven't been involved in any listening experiments regarding this topic. I do know that Meridian claims to have performed extensive research in this area. At any rate, the DSP mechanism which produces temporal blurring (whether audible or not) is not too difficult to understand. Please see my explanation which I had posted to another site some time ago. Link below:

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-source/295397-mqa-5.html#post4970237
 

awsmone

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By the way, while both RBCD and High-Rez are typically mastered utilizing brickwall anti-alias filters, the transient smearing via High-Rez brickwall filters is less than that of RBCD brickwall filters, due to the higher sample rate of High-Rez. The higher rate shortens the duration of the transient smearing, and might be the primary technical reason why High-Rez sounds superior (if only marginally) to RBCD.

thats correct Ken

actually if the frequency of sampling is twice above the upper frequency of the natural band limited content i.e. of the microphones, then a brick wall filter will exhibit no pre ringing

in the MQA site they show a Dirac, which seems to indicate pre ringing compared of the mqa filter, however if nyquist preconditions are met, then this won't occur
 

Ken Newton

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thats correct Ken

actually if the frequency of sampling is twice above the upper frequency of the natural band limited content i.e. of the microphones, then a brick wall filter will exhibit no pre ringing...

Actually, in such a self band-limited system no anti-alias filter is required at all, brickwall or otherwise.
 

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