SET amp owners thread

[christensenleif@msn.com]

6c45 driving 300B through Tommy Hørning nanocrystalline toroid interstage, then Tommy Hørning nanocrystalline Litz wired OPT
LCLC powersupplies with separate powertransformers for all supply voltages including filaments
no electrolytics in powersupplies, only Solen Metalcan 100µF/630vdc film caps metalcans...last in hv driver and 300B shunted with Duelund CAST silver bypass caps
all resistors Audio Note Niobium silver 2 watt resistors
6c45 cathode cap Arcotronics film 470µF/63v
Vacuum State Superregs on 6C45 hv.....12mA operating point
dual chassis each ch.....
S&B gridchokes on driver tubes

 

[Fred Crane]

I like GM70, 14 watts, made by Audio Detail in UK. I also like Thomas Mayer 46, but it will under drive many speakers, unless I ever get to hear a push pull version that sounds close. Some Eimac amps are good for higher power, having heard Silvercore, Trafomatic, and hope to hear NAT with Eimac soon.

SETs is a question of matching drive/grip with the required speaker. This match differs a lot. Usually the higher powered speakers have more grip and lower powered speakers less, but it is less a question of loudness in wattage, rather more of drive matching. Some horns do not want too much grip.

As such, speaker owners should find what zone their match is in. 46, 45, 2a3 is one zone, and 300b singled ended sub 10 watts falls there, while higher powered 300bs usually sound less good but can be nice where more power is required. Then push pulls of 2a3 and 300b in slightly more power. Silvercore 833c (good value for money as relatively inexpensive, but not all out), Lamm, KR fall in the higher powered category, but lesser power than the Eimac ones. GM70 if well made seems to give as much nuance and agility as lower powered tubes but with 211 oomph.

So it requires a bit of matching, tube rolling, driver rolling, then one has to optimize the amp as far as it can go without giving up the voicing, .i.e. get right quality transformers, caps, etc. All this requires some amount of playing around, serendipity, and dig into rabbit hole work.

Triodes aside, Misho's single ended pentode is magic with Altecs with his entire chain, and EL84 push pulls can be great value for money too. There are many other exotic low powered tubes though, 50, AD1, RE 604, so permutations and combinations galore.

In the very high powered category, KR audio circlotron was excellent but not many were made. And their number of tubes and tube cost is too high.

I think of Silvercore primarily as a host for the 833se but they do a 304tl, which is typically found in pp.

You can tell a lot by how a maker of Eimac amps approaches the power supply. I'm obviously biased.

The el84 hasn't gotten its due as it was historically viewed as a budget tube. Hearing the Trafomatic Kaivaylas will cure anyone of that notion.

It does take work, or you can pay someone to do the work for you : )

Fun stuff.

 

[bonzo75]

Well the Kaivalyas happened because many years ago Srajaen commissioned Trafomatic to do it. That was before they got commercially as famous.

the hobby is about learning, you can always sit back and pay someone to set your whole system up but there goes 95 percent of the fun

 

[cjfrbw]

sit back and pay someone to set your whole system up but there goes 95 percent of the fun

Hiring some guy to sit around in my listening room for a few decades changing things around for small evolutionary changes and monitoring outcomes doesn't seem pragmatic for some reason.

You can do a simple mind experiment in which you wear the 'expert' hat yourself and set up somebody else's system for them, leaving them with some short term package deal. You know you are going to be bull sheissing them on some level to keep your 'expert' crown until you are off the scene and they start noodling it out on their own.

The more I learn, the less I know, and it would be hard to be that presumptuous. However, there are individuals who have labored in the audio vineyards and have identified selected cross sections of components, whether new or olden days classical, that do seem to represent a 'best in category' type thing.

Untwining commercial motives? I'll leave that basket of worms for somebody else.

 

[bonzo75]

Hiring some guy to sit around in my listening room for a few decades changing things around for small evolutionary changes and monitoring outcomes doesn't seem pragmatic for some reason.

You can do a simple mind experiment in which you wear the 'expert' hat yourself and set up somebody else's system for them, leaving them with some short term package deal. You know you are going to be bull sheissing them on some level to keep your 'expert' crown until you are off the scene and they start noodling it out on their own.

not at all what I meant. You first like the amp, as is, buy it. No BSing there. You have to do your compares. If it is point to point, and the designer is willing, you can then R&D with his help on it, listen to the sonics, revert back if you don’t like it, or retain the change. The commercial amps are built to a cost and are built to be replicated in numbers. But if you meet an Amp Designer in your city where you like a stock amp better than a reference name like wavac or Kondo or Lamm, buy it and go all out on it.

 

[morricab]

What's your favorite output tube with an output rating within 8 watts of the 300B? 8 watts more or close to the
same output without delving down to true low power such as the 2a3 or 45.

The 520B, 572B, 811.10, gm70, 6L6GC, 845, 211 etc. etc.

I have a weakness for the GM70. I also think the 6l6gc can have much of the magic of the
300b when implemented well...and perhaps a bit more extension. (the 300b does have extension, it's just that many of the circuits cooked up for it are from the the golden era of amp manufacturing, when
speakers didn't go very high or very low...listen to Allen Wright's (Vacuum State) 300b's for instance or the Trafomatic Glenns and the extension is remarkable...The Reimyo PAT-777 was excellent in this regard as well )

Plus, GM70 can easily put out up to 40 watts….more than the others. 813 as used in Aries Cerat is super linear and gives a true 25 watts.

 

[morricab]

What's your favorite output tube with an output rating within 8 watts of the 300B? 8 watts more or close to the
same output without delving down to true low power such as the 2a3 or 45.

The 520B, 572B, 811.10, gm70, 6L6GC, 845, 211 etc. etc.

I have a weakness for the GM70. I also think the 6l6gc can have much of the magic of the
300b when implemented well...and perhaps a bit more extension. (the 300b does have extension, it's just that many of the circuits cooked up for it are from the the golden era of amp manufacturing, when
speakers didn't go very high or very low...listen to Allen Wright's (Vacuum State) 300b's for instance or the Trafomatic Glenns and the extension is remarkable...The Reimyo PAT-777 was excellent in this regard as well )

Allen’s amp was not a SET though. Very good sounding on the right speakers.

 

[morricab]

since i've heard this amp and some diy amps with this tube rs 1003(srs551) i'm sure that it doesn't always have to be triodes to hear music happily. very clean bass, beautiful detailed mids (voices) and unobtrusive heights that do not disturb the music enjoyment. for me one of the best tubes I know. maybe that's something for you. It delivers 12-20 watts depending on the mode of operation and also drives normal loudspeakers from 90db/1watt.

Romy 20SE · Tube integrated amplifier · Rike Audio

Product description Romy 20SE

rikeaudio.de

Or diy 12 watt
View attachment 105096

It’s not wired in triode?

 

[morricab]

What are the first 2. If they are single ended, NAF is parallel, so it can't compare but is required for speakers like Devore which need more drive.

NAF is actually push pull.

 

[morricab]

6c45 driving 300B through Tommy Hørning nanocrystalline toroid interstage, then Tommy Hørning nanocrystalline Litz wired OPT
LCLC powersupplies with separate powertransformers for all supply voltages including filaments
no electrolytics in powersupplies, only Solen Metalcan 100µF/630vdc film caps metalcans...last in hv driver and 300B shunted with Duelund CAST silver bypass caps
all resistors Audio Note Niobium silver 2 watt resistors
6c45 cathode cap Arcotronics film 470µF/63v
Vacuum State Superregs on 6C45 hv.....12mA operating point
dual chassis each ch.....
S&B gridchokes on driver tubes
View attachment 105106

Interesting, the Silvercore amp I just got also uses a 6c45 transformer coupled to a 2A3 output. Transformers are all Silvercore made. It is also LC in the power supply and high voltage supply is all film caps…no electrolytic caps. The Vacuumstate super regs on the 6c45 is a nice touch!

 

[Fred Crane]

Well the Kaivalyas happened because many years ago Srajaen commissioned Trafomatic to do it. That was before they got commercially as famous.

the hobby is about learning, you can always sit back and pay someone to set your whole system up but there goes 95 percent of the fun

No doubt...for some it's fun (like me). For others, the expense of learning, i.e. the 50+ monetary lessons or adjustments may be a hurdle too high.

 

[Fred Crane]

Hiring some guy to sit around in my listening room for a few decades changing things around for small evolutionary changes and monitoring outcomes doesn't seem pragmatic for some reason.

You can do a simple mind experiment in which you wear the 'expert' hat yourself and set up somebody else's system for them, leaving them with some short term package deal. You know you are going to be bull sheissing them on some level to keep your 'expert' crown until you are off the scene and they start noodling it out on their own.

The more I learn, the less I know, and it would be hard to be that presumptuous. However, there are individuals who have labored in the audio vineyards and have identified selected cross sections of components, whether new or olden days classical, that do seem to represent a 'best in category' type thing.

Untwining commercial motives? I'll leave that basket of worms for somebody else.

If it takes someone decades to reach the correct result in your listening space, then he or she is not a professional.

 

[cjfrbw]

The point is that nobody is going to put in the chair time and auditioning in your own stereo system like oneself to find what is most satisfying to the journey. The departure point can be a boombox or an expensive summary installation, it seems nearly everybody changes things from that departure point no matter where it begins.
Audio advice is a tower of babel that can only be unraveled by personal experience rather than religious proclamation from an outside source.

 

[Fishfood]

Certainly when you get to this level of spending, but at a real world level, I find that the audio advice here and elsewhere is really helpful... with the caveat that you need to sit with anything you buy and decide if it's the sound you want to hear.

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

Plus, GM70 can easily put out up to 40 watts….more than the others. 813 as used in Aries Cerat is super linear and gives a true 25 watts.

my GM70 project is about 30watt...100mA

 

[morricab]

Plenty of power.

my GM70 project is about 30watt...100mA

 

[Fred Crane]

The point is that nobody is going to put in the chair time and auditioning in your own stereo system like oneself to find what is most satisfying to the journey. The departure point can be a boombox or an expensive summary installation, it seems nearly everybody changes things from that departure point no matter where it begins.
Audio advice is a tower of babel that can only be unraveled by personal experience rather than religious proclamation from an outside source.

That's wonderfully put and equally misinformed. What you're initially referring to at the beginning of your paragraph is not knowing what you really want...where your priorities lie and how to address them.

People like to believe that their issues are personal unto themselves...that their listening is alone, a signature of their relationship with the music and their space and representative of their unique personality. Poppycock. You can divide music enthusiasts into categories of listening priorities after a few conversations and a visit to their listening space. People think the same thing when they head into an analyst's office ; their problems are somehow unique, when more often than not, you're the third case of whatever you have that the doctor's seen that week. I will give you this, audio advice is a tower of babel taken on-line from a bunch of people, who however well intended, deal with no more than their own system, and in many cases not very well.

And there's nothing religious or supernatural about professional advice, or there shouldn't be. Any advice would be based upon daily experience over many years. (that's what these people are doing daily while you're at your regular job and not on WBF) Whether or not you trust or follow that advice is entirely up to you.

There is another misconception within the audiophile public. All to say, the advice of a professional isn't always to sell everything you have and buy whatever is newest and most costly within their manufacturing relationships. Sometimes it's a band-aid and not open heart surgery. Granted, there have been professionals who are bound to numbers by their partners and who view their job differently...they move boxes. Salesmen are easy to suss out. The conversations don't get too deep and the pivot goes quickly to their gear.

There are any number of excellent specialists in the field. I'm happy to recommend one in your area. Of course, the hobbyist can enjoy the process of discovering little bits at a time by whatever crosses their path. That's great too, but it doesn't negate the other option.

 

[jeff1225]

That's wonderfully put and equally misinformed. What you're initially referring to at the beginning of your paragraph is not knowing what you really want...where your priorities lie and how to address them.

People like to believe that their issues are personal unto themselves...that their listening is alone, a signature of their relationship with the music and their space and representative of their unique personality. Poppycock. You can divide music enthusiasts into categories of listening priorities after a few conversations and a visit to their listening space. People think the same thing when they head into an analyst's office ; their problems are somehow unique, when more often than not, you're the third case of whatever you have that the doctor's seen that week. I will give you this, audio advice is a tower of babel taken on-line from a bunch of people, who however well intended, deal with no more than their own system, and in many cases not very well.

And there's nothing religious or supernatural about professional advice, or there shouldn't be. Any advice would be based upon daily experience over many years. (that's what these people are doing daily while you're at your regular job and not on WBF) Whether or not you trust or follow that advice is entirely up to you.

There is another misconception within the audiophile public. All to say, the advice of a professional isn't always to sell everything you have and buy whatever is newest and most costly within their manufacturing relationships. Sometimes it's a band-aid and not open heart surgery. Granted, there have been professionals who are bound to numbers by their partners and who view their job differently...they move boxes. Salesmen are easy to suss out. The conversations don't get too deep and the pivot goes quickly to their gear.

There are any number of excellent specialists in the field. I'm happy to recommend one in your area. Of course, the hobbyist can enjoy the process of discovering little bits at a time by whatever crosses their path. That's great too, but it doesn't negate the other option.

Humans are not machines, they all hear different and have different preferences. One must hear different types of systems (SS vs tube, Horns vs Box vs panels, etc) to understand their preferences, once a type of system is preferred, they can then seek an audio expert in that field. I’ve never found an “expert” that doesn’t have a specific preference. For example, a horn/SET expert will never recommend panel speakers to someone, they think that type of system is flawed.

Your analysts example is just as flawed. A human cannot be analyzed by a computer or any one analyst. The patient must meet several, understanding what styles and schools of thought are preferred.

 

[Fishfood]

Also flawed because there's an aesthetic component involved too, at least for everyone I know. There's an even wider range of things that are desirable when you open up that variable. I'm not buying or accepting as a gift even the best turntable in the world if it doesn't look beautiful as well.

 

[gleeds]

Agree 100% on humans are not machines. I also agree one should sample different technologies - horn, planar, full-ranger and multiway dynamics to see what draws you most into the music. I do know audio professionals that love them all for what each design excels at and the experience to demonstrate the best of breed in each category.

I have known Dr. Crane for years and IMHO no one is a better example of this. At any one time, Fred will have on his listening room floor Destination Audio and Dynamik horns, SoulSonic and Diptyque planars and Aequo Audio and Sound Kaos multiways. He will also have a variety of tube and solid state amplifier examples to hear them with. Purveyors like this are rare (in the US anyway) but do exist. Seek them out and enjoy the music!