SET amp owners thread

[bonzo75]

some guys think the output transformer is the biggest challenge of designing SET amplifiers and low voltage tubes are better for sound.
I have not read about harmonic canceling of Sakuma but I know Delima Audiopax use timbrelock to cancel harmonics between amplifier / sapeaker

Low voltage tubes are better as circuit is simpler, signal is purer...but there is a tradeoff with power and drive.

There are some well reputed transformer designers. If you hear a good amp, you already know you have a good base, whether it is silicone steel, super permalloy, finemet, or amorphous. Then it is a question of trying the other ones and different winders. Wavac used Tango, Airtight uses Tamura amorphous, NAF is amporphous, Misho and the other GM70 I like are silicone steel, Misho makes his own. Not sure if any of these are maximised. Audio note uses its own, Zanden uses Hitachi finemet, Slagle and some others also do nickel. Some do more than one core and they all have their own winding techniques/recipes. Mayer used Tango and now uses Lundahl after Tango closed. Amps all have their own circuits, and tubes, so listening cannot tell you what the transformer is doing but if you like one amp more than the other, and if it is a designer willing to work with you, you can work with him to try out the other cores/winders. Kondo, Lamm, Zanden, KR, etc are not going to let you, so you will never know what if...so you will just have to treat it as a hobby if you want to. Just like you want to know what different cartirdges do.

There are other transformer winders you can find on DIYaudio, including Monolith, Magnequest, Sowter, Majestic, previously Tribute. There is no clear on who is best, different materials and synergies do different things, but you could definitely find a couple of good ones for each core type.

 

[Fred Crane]

When there is an awkward moment in a conversation around here it is customary to point to the sky and say… look a possum!!!

Along those lines I had been thinking I might consider getting a Sakuma style amp (dht drives dht) commissioned and had been thinking either a 10Y drives 300B SET or a more purist Sakuma 300B drives 300B SET amp. But I have since found a circuit for a GM70 drives GM70 amp. Juices are being driven by this… I am trying to correlate other data and imagine that GM70 seems to favour copper circuits and more regularly copper signal cables in systems but perhaps in an all silver setup of trafos and pure silver signal cables then 300B may well come into its own.

Any thoughts or brave projections from the brains trust about how these concepts for amps might characteristically differ. I get these are just projections. Thinking silver wound OPTs to better fit my SET and all silver signal cables with an OB horn system… and in the spirit of discovery and apparently my continued need for very shiny things. Any thoughts as always much appreciated.

Low voltage tubes are better as circuit is simpler, signal is purer...but there is a tradeoff with power and drive.

There are some well reputed transformer designers. If you hear a good amp, you already know you have a good base, whether it is silicone steel, super permalloy, finemet, or amorphous. Then it is a question of trying the other ones and different winders. Wavac used Tango, Airtight uses Tamura amorphous, NAF is amporphous, Misho and the other GM70 I like are silicone steel, Misho makes his own. Not sure if any of these are maximised. Audio note uses its own, Zanden uses Hitachi finemet, Slagle and some others also do nickel. Some do more than one core and they all have their own winding techniques/recipes. Mayer used Tango and now uses Lundahl after Tango closed. Amps all have their own circuits, and tubes, so listening cannot tell you what the transformer is doing but if you like one amp more than the other, and if it is a designer willing to work with you, you can work with him to try out the other cores/winders. Kondo, Lamm, Zanden, KR, etc are not going to let you, so you will never know what if...so you will just have to treat it as a hobby if you want to. Just like you want to know what different cartirdges do.

There are other transformer winders you can find on DIYaudio, including Monolith, Magnequest, Sowter, Majestic, previously Tribute. There is no clear on who is best, different materials and synergies do different things, but you could definitely find a couple of good ones for each core type.

I like some nickel and prefer a single core. Then again, everything is subject to the whole.

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

I´ve stayed with the toroid OPTs...last one I moved over to nanocrystalline wired with Litz, which I´ve never encountered before
my Menno van der Veen GM-70 OPT is toroid too

 

[Glide3]

When there is an awkward moment in a conversation around here it is customary to point to the sky and say… look a possum!!!

Along those lines I had been thinking I might consider getting a Sakuma style amp (dht drives dht) commissioned and had been thinking either a 10Y drives 300B SET or a more purist Sakuma 300B drives 300B SET amp. But I have since found a circuit for a GM70 drives GM70 amp. Juices are being driven by this… I am trying to correlate other data and imagine that GM70 seems to favour copper circuits and more regularly copper signal cables in systems but perhaps in an all silver setup of trafos and pure silver signal cables then 300B may well come into its own.

Any thoughts or brave projections from the brains trust about how these concepts for amps might characteristically differ. I get these are just projections. Thinking silver wound OPTs to better fit my SET and all silver signal cables with an OB horn system… and in the spirit of discovery and apparently my continued need for very shiny things. Any thoughts as always much appreciated.

An audiophile friend and I worked with an experienced and talented amp builder who my friend was familiar with and came as a trusted source.
We have had three amps built over the last year:
1) VT25 driving 211 (13 watts)
2) E55L driving 211 (13 watts)
3) DET 25 driving DET 25 (8watts)

so 1 & 3 are SET driving SET

They are all built as monoblocks
They all have both single ended and balanced inputs.
They are all fully tube rectified
They all have choke loaded power supplies
There are no capacitors or resistors anywhere in the signal path

they all share the same design where the power tube is rectified by an RGN 4004/U8 type tube (and variants) and the Output tube is rectified by 4- GZ34 (and variants)

the build requires the transformers and chokes to be custom made for the tubes and circuit.
As an example, we run the 211 tubes at 500v based on design choices

both 211 builds are copper wound transformers and the DET25 is silver wound.

the DET25 has not been delivered yet so I can’t comment on the sound and have never heard this tube before…I actually had never heard of this tube before.

both versions of the 211 have been in our systems for 6-9 months. They are dead quiet and sound very good. Based on my experience, this build really let’s you hear the tubes. So, as an example, the difference between an STC 4242 and a WE 242 or a telefunken 237 is very apparent.
I’ve heard the amps with Devore O/96, Audio Note ANe/SEC silver, Honing Ellipse and my current speakers which are DIY horns using AER/BD3 and Supravox 285EXC field coils. These are not yet finished as I am considering finishes and trying some different configurations.

So, I encourage you to pursue this path…results have been very rewarding for me

Some pics:
System
VT25/211
E55L/211
DE

 

[morricab]

I´ve stayed with the toroid OPTs...last one I moved over to nanocrystalline wired with Litz, which I´ve never encountered before
my Menno van der Veen GM-70 OPT is toroid too

Why Toroids? The only triode amp I know that uses toroids is the BAT VK series amps using 6C33C in circlotron PP and not SET. Just curious what you think the advantages are for such an OPT as it is rarely used.

 

[the sound of Tao]

An audiophile friend and I worked with an experienced and talented amp builder who my friend was familiar with and came as a trusted source.
We have had three amps built over the last year:
1) VT25 driving 211 (13 watts)
2) E55L driving 211 (13 watts)
3) DET 25 driving DET 25 (8watts)

so 1 & 3 are SET driving SET

They are all built as monoblocks
They all have both single ended and balanced inputs.
They are all fully tube rectified
They all have choke loaded power supplies
There are no capacitors or resistors anywhere in the signal path

they all share the same design where the power tube is rectified by an RGN 4004/U8 type tube (and variants) and the Output tube is rectified by 4- GZ34 (and variants)

the build requires the transformers and chokes to be custom made for the tubes and circuit.
As an example, we run the 211 tubes at 500v based on design choices

both 211 builds are copper wound transformers and the DET25 is silver wound.

the DET25 has not been delivered yet so I can’t comment on the sound and have never heard this tube before…I actually had never heard of this tube before.

both versions of the 211 have been in our systems for 6-9 months. They are dead quiet and sound very good. Based on my experience, this build really let’s you hear the tubes. So, as an example, the difference between an STC 4242 and a WE 242 or a telefunken 237 is very apparent.
I’ve heard the amps with Devore O/96, Audio Note ANe/SEC silver, Honing Ellipse and my current speakers which are DIY horns using AER/BD3 and Supravox 285EXC field coils. These are not yet finished as I am considering finishes and trying some different configurations.

So, I encourage you to pursue this path…results have been very rewarding for me

Some pics:
System
VT25/211
E55L/211
DE

These look fantastic thanks Glide3. You’ve really thrown yourself into this. Looking forwards to hearing about your discoveries with the new DET25. Great stuff.

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

more linear and lower distortion is what I´m told
also more efficient

 

[Glide3]

These look fantastic thanks Glide3. You’ve really thrown yourself into this. Looking forwards to hearing about your discoveries with the new DET25. Great stuff.

Thank you

 

[morricab]

more linear and lower distortion is what I´m told
also more efficient

How do you deal with the much easier saturation of the toroid? Did you just go extra large size?

 

[Amir]

What makes me curious is why Lamm SET amplifiers have very good bass in comparison by other SET amplifiers.
Does it come from output transformer design of lamm?

 

[bonzo75]

What makes me curious is why Lamm SET amplifiers have very good bass in comparison by other SET amplifiers.
Does it come from output transformer design of lamm?

which SETs did you compare with on which speakers

 

[Salectric]

An audiophile friend and I worked with an experienced and talented amp builder who my friend was familiar with and came as a trusted source.
We have had three amps built over the last year:
1) VT25 driving 211 (13 watts)
2) E55L driving 211 (13 watts)
3) DET 25 driving DET 25 (8watts)

so 1 & 3 are SET driving SET

They are all built as monoblocks
They all have both single ended and balanced inputs.
They are all fully tube rectified
They all have choke loaded power supplies
There are no capacitors or resistors anywhere in the signal path

they all share the same design where the power tube is rectified by an RGN 4004/U8 type tube (and variants) and the Output tube is rectified by 4- GZ34 (and variants)

the build requires the transformers and chokes to be custom made for the tubes and circuit.
As an example, we run the 211 tubes at 500v based on design choices

both 211 builds are copper wound transformers and the DET25 is silver wound.

the DET25 has not been delivered yet so I can’t comment on the sound and have never heard this tube before…I actually had never heard of this tube before.

both versions of the 211 have been in our systems for 6-9 months. They are dead quiet and sound very good. Based on my experience, this build really let’s you hear the tubes. So, as an example, the difference between an STC 4242 and a WE 242 or a telefunken 237 is very apparent.
I’ve heard the amps with Devore O/96, Audio Note ANe/SEC silver, Honing Ellipse and my current speakers which are DIY horns using AER/BD3 and Supravox 285EXC field coils. These are not yet finished as I am considering finishes and trying some different configurations.

So, I encourage you to pursue this path…results have been very rewarding for me

Some pics:
System
VT25/211
E55L/211
De

An audiophile friend and I worked with an experienced and talented amp builder who my friend was familiar with and came as a trusted source.
We have had three amps built over the last year:
1) VT25 driving 211 (13 watts)
2) E55L driving 211 (13 watts)
3) DET 25 driving DET 25 (8watts)

so 1 & 3 are SET driving SET

They are all built as monoblocks
They all have both single ended and balanced inputs.
They are all fully tube rectified
They all have choke loaded power supplies
There are no capacitors or resistors anywhere in the signal path

they all share the same design where the power tube is rectified by an RGN 4004/U8 type tube (and variants) and the Output tube is rectified by 4- GZ34 (and variants)

the build requires the transformers and chokes to be custom made for the tubes and circuit.
As an example, we run the 211 tubes at 500v based on design choices

both 211 builds are copper wound transformers and the DET25 is silver wound.

the DET25 has not been delivered yet so I can’t comment on the sound and have never heard this tube before…I actually had never heard of this tube before.

both versions of the 211 have been in our systems for 6-9 months. They are dead quiet and sound very good. Based on my experience, this build really let’s you hear the tubes. So, as an example, the difference between an STC 4242 and a WE 242 or a telefunken 237 is very apparent.
I’ve heard the amps with Devore O/96, Audio Note ANe/SEC silver, Honing Ellipse and my current speakers which are DIY horns using AER/BD3 and Supravox 285EXC field coils. These are not yet finished as I am considering finishes and trying some different configurations.

So, I encourage you to pursue this path…results have been very rewarding for me

Some pics:
System
VT25/211
E55L/211
DE

Those amps are simply beautiful!

 

[Amir]

which SETs did you compare with on which speakers

I did not listen to Lamm ML2/ML3 , only checked ML2 Measurements and Lamm owners feedbacks about Lamm bass quality.

 

[bonzo75]

I did not listen to Lamm ML2/ML3 , only checked ML2 Measurements and Lamm owners feedbacks about Lamm bass quality.

I knew the answer to the question I asked you already. I asked it so that from your response it be clear, as many people do random searches and your post might lead people to believe that other SET amps are weaker than Lamms. I have no issues with Lamm owners liking their amps, but let's not unfairly put other SETs down.

 

[Amir]

I knew the answer to the question I asked you already. I asked it so that from your response it be clear, as many people do random searches and your post might lead people to believe that other SET amps are weaker than Lamms. I have no issues with Lamm owners liking their amps, but let's not unfairly put other SETs down.

Share your experience about bass quality of other SET amplifiers vs Lamm ?
Is there better than Lamm?

 

[bonzo75]

Share your experience about bass quality of other SET amplifiers vs Lamm ?
Is there better than Lamm?

There are many SET amplifiers, many are excellent. You really can't compare to Lamm to a 1.25 watt Thomas Mayer 46 driving Pnoe AER BD4/5 just as you cannot compare it to a 2w 45 amp. I am not interested in comparing Lamm there. And these amps will not drive some of the speakers Lamm drives. I have heard Bionors with all Lamm and with all Kondo G1000-G10-Kagura, and prefer the Kondo system. I have compared Lamm preamp and Kondo M1000, and preferred the M1000. And I am not a Kondo fan either, they are very good in certain ways with the right speaker. Lamm is mostly an US product, and EU is way richer in SETs. Everywhere I look these days, there is a SET. And tons and tons of variety. 45, 46, 2a3, 211, 845, GM70, Eimac, many other tubes, and even on same tube many amps with different flavors.

Your question about bass quality does not even make sense to me. If something was lacking in bass, I understand, once you establish it is not due to mismatch of the amp and the speaker, a mistake often made while auditioning SETs. But then I don't select something just because it has bass. It has to play the entire gamut of the orchestra. There is flow, texture, attack, decay, balance across the spectrum including the bass, transparency to recordings keeping the realism, many things I look for.

If you wanted bass on some of the cones, which some of the Lamm owners tend to have, find yourself an Eimac amp. Trafomatic, NAT, KR, all have good bass at various levels, plus drive and dynamics. All sound different.

Right now I am interested in finding alternatives to the Thomas Mayer 46 on the Pnoe. Because I liked the TM 46 sonically, so I would like to hear what can be better. I am interested in finding, for my own personal use in the future, something that works well with Altec 817 or something like Leif's dual FLH, because these are the best systems I have heard. I am interested to find ideal amps for hORNs Universum, and maybe the Lamm ML2 can be used for some compares there, as it has a bit more grip and drive that the Universums require compared to many other SETs, KR being the other contender in the grip/drive category . And then comparing the Eimac monsters can always be fun. I have heard trafomatic on Cessaros compared to Alienos which were some type of OTLs.

There are just too many high quality options. Find a good SET match for a speaker you like and go town on it

 

[Glide3]

Those amps are simply beautiful!

Thank you
The VT25/211 was done first and I was very happy with the look, fit and finish…after all, it is a DIY
My friend has loftier standards than I do, so worked with the builder to get a higher level of finish. The last two pairs look very professional.

 

[Solypsa]

Nice. Tape only for analog or vinyl too? Looks like an amazing system

 

[Glide3]

Nice. Tape only for analog or vinyl too? Looks like an amazing system

Yes, tape only for analog…I have maybe 100 tapes to scratch the analog itch
I was well into vinyl for many years and loved/love it but an impending move, retirement and a local who bought everything all together was the impetus. Had I not been able to get my digital to a more than respectable level in the last few years, I never could have done it.
I have local friends with nice LP based systems so still get to hear what I’m missing.

 

[charles1dad]

There are many SET amplifiers, many are excellent. You really can't compare to Lamm to a 1.25 watt Thomas Mayer 46 driving Pnoe AER BD4/5 just as you cannot compare it to a 2w 45 amp. I am not interested in comparing Lamm there. And these amps will not drive some of the speakers Lamm drives. I have heard Bionors with all Lamm and with all Kondo G1000-G10-Kagura, and prefer the Kondo system. I have compared Lamm preamp and Kondo M1000, and preferred the M1000. And I am not a Kondo fan either, they are very good in certain ways with the right speaker. Lamm is mostly an US product, and EU is way richer in SETs. Everywhere I look these days, there is a SET. And tons and tons of variety. 45, 46, 2a3, 211, 845, GM70, Eimac, many other tubes, and even on same tube many amps with different flavors.

Your question about bass quality does not even make sense to me. If something was lacking in bass, I understand, once you establish it is not due to mismatch of the amp and the speaker, a mistake often made while auditioning SETs. But then I don't select something just because it has bass. It has to play the entire gamut of the orchestra. There is flow, texture, attack, decay, balance across the spectrum including the bass, transparency to recordings keeping the realism, many things I look for.

If you wanted bass on some of the cones, which some of the Lamm owners tend to have, find yourself an Eimac amp. Trafomatic, NAT, KR, all have good bass at various levels, plus drive and dynamics. All sound different.

Right now I am interested in finding alternatives to the Thomas Mayer 46 on the Pnoe. Because I liked the TM 46 sonically, so I would like to hear what can be better. I am interested in finding, for my own personal use in the future, something that works well with Altec 817 or something like Leif's dual FLH, because these are the best systems I have heard. I am interested to find ideal amps for hORNs Universum, and maybe the Lamm ML2 can be used for some compares there, as it has a bit more grip and drive that the Universums require compared to many other SETs, KR being the other contender in the grip/drive category . And then comparing the Eimac monsters can always be fun. I have heard trafomatic on Cessaros compared to Alienos which were some type of OTLs.

There are just too many high quality options. Find a good SET match for a speaker you like and go town on it

Excellent perspective and comments. So many very good SET choices and paths to travel.
Charles