SET amp owners thread

[Fred Crane]

Humans are not machines, they all hear different and have different preferences. One must hear different types of systems (SS vs tube, Horns vs Box vs panels, etc) to understand their preferences, once a type of system is preferred, they can then seek an audio expert in that field. I’ve never found an “expert” that doesn’t have a specific preference. For example, a horn/SET expert will never recommend panel speakers to someone, they think that type of system is flawed.

Your analysts example is just as flawed. A human cannot be analyzed by a computer or any one analyst. The patient must meet several, understanding what styles and schools of thought are preferred.

Of course humans are not at all machines. If that's what you garnered from my post then I apologize for poor writing, though that certainly wasn't my intent and I don't think i wrote anything to that effect. Humans do hear differently and do have different preferences. The idea that those different ways of hearing or personal preferences are innumerable is simply not accurate in my experience. I don't know where you got the computer analogy. I'm not a computer. The client giving me his or her information is not a computer, and the room and existing system if there is one, is a real 3d marker that we can both experience.

I see your point that 'specialization' has many industry examples. However, I do take issue with the idea that a professional would recommend a particular approach even though he or she knows from speaking to a client, that said approach is not what they prefer. I certainly would never do such a thing. If I spoke to someone who obviously enjoyed the attributes of a panel speaker, I would oblige them. After all, we're in the business of satisfying people not creating more issues. Personally, I do not think there is only one way to nirvana and I can cite any number of professionals who feel similarly.

I suppose being a professional with different approaches, I don't think that a client needs to see several of me. What I do think is helpful, is being able to demo several different approaches to the novice who hasn't ascertained what they like. Then, whether they go forward with something from us or elsewhere, they have added to their palette. In broad strokes, this can also be the value in attending a show.

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

shops/retailers are prone to recommend whatever is already in their portfolio
if they do not sell panels, they´ll hardly oblige to that particular client

 

[jeff1225]

Of course humans are not at all machines. If that's what you garnered from my post then I apologize for poor writing, though that certainly wasn't my intent and I don't think i wrote anything to that effect. Humans do hear differently and do have different preferences. The idea that those different ways of hearing or personal preferences are innumerable is simply not accurate in my experience. I don't know where you got the computer analogy. I'm not a computer. The client giving me his or her information is not a computer, and the room and existing system if there is one, is a real 3d marker that we can both experience.

I see your point that 'specialization' has many industry examples. However, I do take issue with the idea that a professional would recommend a particular approach even though he or she knows from speaking to a client, that said approach is not what they prefer. I certainly would never do such a thing. If I spoke to someone who obviously enjoyed the attributes of a panel speaker, I would oblige them. After all, we're in the business of satisfying people not creating more issues. Personally, I do not think there is only one way to nirvana and I can cite any number of professionals who feel similarly.

I suppose being a professional with different approaches, I don't think that a client needs to see several of me. What I do think is helpful, is being able to demo several different approaches to the novice who hasn't ascertained what they like. Then, whether they go forward with something from us or elsewhere, they have added to their palette. In broad strokes, this can also be the value in attending a show.

Fred,
Based on your reputation, you might be one of the few audio professionals that has an objective approach to the hobby. Personally, I find that people recommend what they own (owners bias) and sellers recommend what they sell (capitalism.) For many years I only knew of what I read in magazines, heard at dealers, and heard at shows. I never knew that I would fall in love with vintage horns and SET amps until I happened to meet a group of like minded individuals in Seattle.

But....I'm probably being too focused on my own audiophile life experience, another human flaw.

Take care.

 

[Fred Crane]

Fred,
Based on your reputation, you might be one of the few audio professionals that has an objective approach to the hobby. Personally, I find that people recommend what they own (owners bias) and sellers recommend what they sell (capitalism.) For many years I only knew of what I read in magazines, heard at dealers, and heard at shows. I never knew that I would fall in love with vintage horns and SET amps until I happened to meet a group of like minded individuals in Seattle.

But....I'm probably being too focused on my own audiophile life experience, another human flaw.

Take care.

Thanks for the kind words.

I get it. I remember being an enthusiast (after an early stint working in studios) driving to all the big dealers near my then location, looking for a good listen. It was tough going. Only thanks to a salesman that took me to his home to hear his personal system that my eyes were opened past my old 604's. It's groups like yours in Seattle that have improved the market and forced the bar to be raised. In the past 20 years, the number of cottage, great sounding dealers has increased quite a bit. It is hard to carry varying techniques if only from a cost perspective, but there is true validity and soul in many approaches if they're well implemented. Sounds like you're found your sweet spot and that's more than half the process...it should be good fun from here on out.

 

[gleeds]

Fred et al, IMO we are in a new golden age of audio with more innovative smaller brands at appealing value points up and down the scale than ever before. Why is it important to support, smaller innovative manufacturers? You know, those products not available from the well known major brand high end shops selling several versions of the same well worn thing. I won't digress further from this excellent thread but will be posting thoughts on the subject separately. Small, pioneering firms started this hobby for all of us to enjoy. Long live pioneers!

 

[cjfrbw]

There are any number of excellent specialists in the field. I'm happy to recommend one in your area. Of course, the hobbyist can enjoy the process of discovering little bits at a time by whatever crosses their path. That's great too, but it doesn't negate the other option.

With all due respect, I would not recommend utilizing these hollow elitisms in your sales pitches unless you are dealing with agog, naif financial whales instead of experienced audiophiles.

 

[Fred Crane]

With all due respect, I would not recommend utilizing these hollow elitisms in your sales pitches unless you are dealing with agog, naif financial whales instead of experienced audiophiles.

We obviously disagree about the worth of professional help in audio. That you feel the need to refer to my stated experience as 'hollow elitisms' makes me think you aren't used to people disagreeing with you. That you have the ego to presume that you speak for all experienced audiophiles is not something I can address, (that requires another kind of help). Lastly, you have no idea who my clients are especially if you believe them to be agog, naive financial whales. They are anything but, representing a wide swath of economic backgrounds, some with tremendous audiophile cred and some who just want the music to sound as real as possible.

 

[Fishfood]

With all due respect, I would not recommend utilizing these hollow elitisms in your sales pitches unless you are dealing with agog, naif financial whales instead of experienced audiophiles.

Certain this isn't remotely accurate based on what I've heard and read about Fred nor is it in any way appropriate. Bad day? Maybe delete it?

 

[cjfrbw]

I was trying to be kind before you lose more than you recruit. Your tactics are narrow band, and might work with a narrow band type, but that's all. Maybe that's all you care about.

Also, you set up a straw man rather reactively and started sword swinging.

I don't condemn expertise. However, audiophile systems are usually long term projects. Experts will deliver short term packages or solutions or stratified, commercially driven solutions that can be hit or miss or a 'one size fits all'. Blogs for decades are full of the wailing and gnashing of teeth over such things.That's fine, and that's why I said it winds up being a starting point which can be either lavish or simple.

 

[cjfrbw]

Certain this isn't remotely accurate based on what I've heard and read about Fred nor is it in any way appropriate. Bad day? Maybe delete it?

No, I will not honor either his straw man or his attitude. Maybe he is the one having a bad day and needs to alter his responses.

 

[Fred Crane]

I was trying to be kind before you lose more than you recruit. Your tactics are narrow band, and might work with a narrow band type, but that's all. Maybe that's all you care about.

Also, you set up a straw man rather reactively and started sword swinging.

I don't condemn expertise. However, audiophile systems are usually long term projects. Experts will deliver short term packages or solutions or stratified, commercially driven solutions that can be hit or miss or a 'one size fits all'. Blogs for decades are full of the wailing and gnashing of teeth over such things.That's fine, and that's why I said it winds up being a starting point which can be either lavish or simple.

It's like the ultimate challenge. Now I really want to help you with your system, if only to change your mind. Take a look at what I carry. Most of the partners have been there for years. Can you honestly look at them and think that there was a commercial decision in the lot? If you've heard of any of our manufacturing partners it's likely only in the last few years. Being in this business is a labor of love. If there was an avaricious bone in my body I'd be in another line of work, or I'd have a big name store featuring all of the gear that's constantly featured in the mass market aisle of the hi-fi experience.

 

[Fred Crane]

Certain this isn't remotely accurate based on what I've heard and read about Fred nor is it in any way appropriate. Bad day? Maybe delete it?

Thanks for the kind words.

 

[cjfrbw]

LOL! Well, you had your moment of frosty snobbery elitism and I had my moment of counter snobbery. Power to the people. Let's leave it at that.

I'm sure you have dandy products in your line and experts to explain and install them.

 

[bonzo75]

I don’t think is helping at all. This is a SETs owner thread.

i have no idea of Fred’s clients or business style. In his defence, I do think his audio experience is among the highest on this forum including in SETs horns, like serious deep knowledge, and I like his posts.

In Carl’s defence, it is natural for a private individual is to be skeptical of recommendations from someone in the business. That unfortunately comes with the business.

so let’s move on with that until they experience each other’s set up and listening styles and recommendations that follow from that listening

 

[the sound of Tao]

When there is an awkward moment in a conversation around here it is customary to point to the sky and say… look a possum!!!

Along those lines I had been thinking I might consider getting a Sakuma style amp (dht drives dht) commissioned and had been thinking either a 10Y drives 300B SET or a more purist Sakuma 300B drives 300B SET amp. But I have since found a circuit for a GM70 drives GM70 amp. Juices are being driven by this… I am trying to correlate other data and imagine that GM70 seems to favour copper circuits and more regularly copper signal cables in systems but perhaps in an all silver setup of trafos and pure silver signal cables then 300B may well come into its own.

Any thoughts or brave projections from the brains trust about how these concepts for amps might characteristically differ. I get these are just projections. Thinking silver wound OPTs to better fit my SET and all silver signal cables with an OB horn system… and in the spirit of discovery and apparently my continued need for very shiny things. Any thoughts as always much appreciated.

 

[bonzo75]

When there is an awkward moment in a conversation around here it is customary to point to the sky and say… look a possum!!!

Along those lines I had been thinking I might consider getting a Sakuma style amp (dht drives dht) commissioned and had been thinking either a 10Y drives 300B SET or a more purist Sakuma 300B drives 300B SET amp. But I have since found a circuit for a GM70 drives GM70 amp. Juices are being driven by this…

Any thoughts or brave projections from the brains trust about how these concepts for amps might characteristically differ. I get these are just projections. Thinking silver wound OPTs to fit my need for very shiny things. Any thoughts much appreciated.

Sakuma had a tube A drives tube A theory to cancel harmonics. I have heard Mayer's 211 drives 211.

I would suggest before you go all out with silver etc look for which amp matches the drive required for your final (?) speaker and your tube taste. 10y or 801a drives 300b is meaningless if SE 300b cannot move your woofers, or if you prefer GM70 or 46 to 300b.

Till then easier to listen to what amp you like, then commission all out if you like an amp. I liked the fact that I prefer the GM70 I heard to Kondo Neiro 2a3 and a few others, I will also try again Shindo 300b but having experienced both in compares I am more sure of the GM70 already, so direct compare against the Shindo 300b is likely to be nothing more than a verification.

But continuing to indulge in your line of commissioning thought for forum fun sake, if I had my final dual FLH up now, I would try some other drivers, then get a couple of transformers from some well known guys to compare with the silicone steel transformer currently in. If the other transformers were significantly better (and with 45, 2a3, and 300b you would have more transformers to choose from then GM70 or 211 etc), I would experiment with more core materials/winder combinations before trying out silver. Once transformer sorted, then experiment with signal caps, then PSU caps and resistors, all this provided the designer himself could do the changes for me and revert back easily at any step if required. Keep in mind for this it will help to find an amp with the designer in your proximity. You will have to set up a circuit only to burn in a lot of caps and resistors so that you could keep doing compares. You will look completely like a mad professor to someone who visits you. And even then you will not know differences between different circuits...

 

[the sound of Tao]

Sakuma had a tube A drives tube A theory to cancel harmonics. I have heard Mayer's 211 drives 211.

I would suggest before you go all out with silver etc look for which amp matches the drive required for your final (?) speaker and your tube taste. 10y or 801a drives 300b is meaningless if SE 300b cannot move your woofers, or if you prefer GM70 or 46 to 300b.

Till then easier to listen to what amp you like, then commission all out if you like an amp. I liked the fact that I prefer the GM70 I heard to Kondo Neiro 2a3 and a few others, I will also try again Shindo 300b but having experienced both in compares I am more sure of the GM70 already, so direct compare against the Shindo 300b is likely to be nothing more than a verification.

But continuing to indulge in your line of commissioning thought for forum fun sake, if I had my final dual FLH up now, I would try some other drivers, then get a couple of transformers from some well known guys to compare with the silicone steel transformer currently in. If the other transformers were significantly better (and with 45, 2a3, and 300b you would have more transformers to choose from then GM70 or 211 etc), I would experiment with more core materials/winder combinations before trying out silver. Once transformer sorted, then experiment with signal caps, then PSU caps and resistors, all this provided the designer himself could do the changes for me and revert back easily at any step if required. Keep in mind for this it will help to find an amp with the designer in your proximity. You will have to set up a circuit only to burn in a lot of caps and resistors so that you could keep doing compares. You will look completely like a mad professor to someone who visits you. And even then you will not know differences between different circuits...

Thanks Ked. A 300B SET can more than drive my current setup and the new speakers will be a bit more sensitive again.

I really like the idea that an advantage of staying with 300Bs gives me more options on the trafos. I also have more 300B tubes already here as tubes to trial in and more background with them. Still think they are very different beasts in a top end silver wire setup.

I am patient and having more long term goals for the development of the amp fits my needs fine… I have two SETs here already to use as benchmarks and open to having two amps in the setup based upon the needs of the music… so an amp for classical and jazz and another that thrashes just that little bit more for EDM and more hard core music, either way this is very much a long term design process of discovery for me.

Going GM70 is more niche possibly… as sexy as that idea is. I do like the idea of Lamm and the Destinations GM70 integrated but Bill’s UK GM70 results have very much also driven the interest and potential in this idea.

 

[bonzo75]

Thanks Ked. A 300B SET can more than drive my current setup and the new speakers will be a bit more sensitive again.

I really like the idea that an advantage of staying with 300Bs gives me more options on the trafos. I also have more 300B tubes already here as tubes to trial in and background with them. Still think they are very different beasts in a top end silver wire setup.

I am patient and having more long term goals for the development of the amp fits my needs fine… I have two SETs here already to use as benchmarks and open to having two amps in the setup based upon the needs of the music… this is very much a long term design process for me. Going GM70 is more niche possibly… as sexy as that idea is. I do like the Destinations GM70 integrated but Bill’s UK GM70 results have also driven this idea.

my point was that you should find an amp you like and maximise it. If you like the 300b that’s on 300b.

i have heard 3 GM70s. I only liked one and all sounded different.

3 in compares. 4 total

 

[the sound of Tao]

i have heard 3 GM70s. I only liked one and all sounded different.

Great data point point Ked.

 

[Amir]

i have heard 3 GM70s. I only liked one and all sounded different.

some guys think the output transformer is the biggest challenge of designing SET amplifiers and low voltage tubes are better for sound.
I have not read about harmonic canceling of Sakuma but I know Delima Audiopax use timbrelock to cancel harmonics between amplifier / sapeaker