SET amp owners thread

I think you also have to be really committed to venture down the relatively unfamiliar SET path.
It's called research, inquisitiveness, enthusiasm, progress. You have been to Sushi Tetsu and other restaurants for food, why stick to burger king and McDonalds for audio?
Having finally heard a horn that intrigues me 2 years ago (the AG Trio G3), I could imagine how well that works with the Ongaku. But again, the floor area of the AG Trio G3 with its dual horns is nearly 5x that of the big Wilsons. just over 8 square feet vs 40 square feet or so.
I don't know where you are getting 40 sq ft from unless you are3 calculating 6 bass horns they had spread out over a show room. You can put two bass horns in the middle and you will be fine. You just need a Devore Orangutan with an Airtight integrated 300b or Naf 2a3 to better XVX with big SS amp, kind of like a good cafe can better McDs.
 
It's called research, inquisitiveness, enthusiasm, progress. You have been to Sushi Tetsu and other restaurants for food, why stick to burger king and McDonalds for audio?

I don't know where you are getting 40 sq ft from unless you are3 calculating 6 bass horns they had spread out over a show room. You can put two bass horns in the middle and you will be fine. You just need a Devore Orangutan with an Airtight integrated 300b or Naf 2a3 to better XVX with big SS amp, kind of like a good cafe can better McDs.
NAF 2A3, while great sounding, is PP and not SET.
 
NAF 2A3, while great sounding, is PP and not SET.

Yes I know I have said a few times on the forum I like some low watt PPs too, and single ended tetrodes and single pentodes.
 
It's called research, inquisitiveness, enthusiasm, progress. You have been to Sushi Tetsu and other restaurants for food, why stick to burger king and McDonalds for audio?

I don't know where you are getting 40 sq ft from unless you are3 calculating 6 bass horns they had spread out over a show room. You can put two bass horns in the middle and you will be fine. You just need a Devore Orangutan with an Airtight integrated 300b or Naf 2a3 to better XVX with big SS amp, kind of like a good cafe can better McDs.
Yes, its all about time and effort. It takes a lot less time to eat (which generally most people do every 24 hours to survive so its also practical) than to find someone in audio you trust to have the right equipment for audition, then warranty it for years, have audiotech people to maintain equipment, etc. The equipment we have has always been picked up if it breaks, replaced with temporary equipment during repair and then brought back. Not that many dealers can make that work...with manufacturers who have their own repair centers and people, let alone with more esoteric equipment where there might not be that level of available support.

And I genuinely enjoy the audio we have, and nothing to date has inspired me enough to consider a change. The closest has been the AG set up, though I still had some issues which would need working out before i could say it was the kind of all-in upgrade in sound that was worth it. As for the space requirement for AG, whenever I have seen them set up, the main horn is 3 feet by 3 feet or so. The bass horn is around 3.5+ feet by 2+ feet. But there is a little space in between. So around 5 feet by 4 feet of space take up overall. That is 20 sf per channel or 40 sf in a room.
 
Yes, its all about time and effort. It takes a lot less time to eat (which generally most people do every 24 hours to survive so its also practical) than to find someone in audio you trust to have the right equipment for audition, then warranty it for years, have audiotech people to maintain equipment, etc. The equipment we have has always been picked up if it breaks, replaced with temporary equipment during repair and then brought back. Not that many dealers can make that work...with manufacturers who have their own repair centers and people, let alone with more esoteric equipment where there might not be that level of available support.
There are tons of reports on the forum on well distributed equipment not being serviced properly or companies even shutting down. On the other hand, point to point wired low watt amps can be fixed by any local tech.
 
There are tons of reports on the forum on well distributed equipment not being serviced properly or companies even shutting down. On the other hand, point to point wired low watt amps can be fixed by any local tech.
Thanks and helpful. Would still add...audio tech you trust who answers to a dealer you trust. But your point is well taken. Its why certain new panel speakers are something I am intrigued about but not convinced I would take that plunge in case in 3 years, something happened. The tech is far more esoteric than a cone or horn speaker.
 
I’d definitely think SET ownership is dominated by people who largely trust in their listening experiences and weigh more heavily on their subjective listening evaluations than other parameters.

It’s easy to skew the issues of objective assessment like measurements for those not factoring in that the choice to go to SET requires specific system tailoring and that most successful SET based systems work with those paradigms. So the less ideal performance scenarios of pushing SET beyond its reasonable limits or using inappropriate speakers isn’t a concern for content SET owners but clearly more so for the measurement first dudes.

I’d also suggest most people who end up with a SET based system don’t start out with SET. It seems to me many people evolve to SET from more typical amplification. So they have good references for what they are hearing with SET versus SS or high powered push pull tubes.

Few people’s journeys start with SET and that’s because the output limitations and speaker requirements seem counter intuitive to a young newby out of a more is more culture. Big power and cubic capacity is a fantastic early attraction. Most of us who fall in love with SET likely come to SET after years of living with some pathway mix of solid state and or other push pull tube amps, maybe some even dallied with class D amps… I know there are those who also moved on from SET after trying it out. No particular topology is right for all listeners or for all circumstances.

So for the long lasting SET owner any constraint of its topology is obviously being outweighed by what are seen as SET strengths or virtues. I’m not sure we need to be educated continuously on well known pros and cons or convinced that what we hear isn’t the best choice for us out of all those that we could have made.
This is a good overall assessment. Every SET owner I know came from a very different place than they have ended up. Most of the ones I know were planar speaker lovers, who of course had migrated to planar speakers from the usual box speaker suspects. I was also one of those planar speaker aficionados, having owned about 8 different brands/models of planar speaker (both ribbon and electrostat) before moving to horns and other high sensitivity speakers. I was primarily a fan of moderately high powered hybrid amps during that time; however, as a reviewer I got to try some SET amps (KR Audio Kronzilla monos), which despite probably not having quite enough power for my electrostats, sounded absolutely glorious compared to the other very good amps I had in house.

This took me then on a quest to get better matched speakers for this type of amp...and I landed eventually on 2-way horn speakers (Odeon La Boheme). I still have those but have expanded to Horning Eufrodite Ellipse, which are probably the most SET friendly speakers I have ever used and my own DIY setup using a Supravox 215-2000 wide band driver in a TQWT cabinet with a 1.4 inch compression driver/wood Tractrix horn fully active setup that uses 2 SET amps.

I would probably have much bigger horn systems if I had the floor space for it; however, the coherence of a well sorted 2-way gives me the horn dynamics (all speakers I have are 97dB or higher sensitivity) but also a seamlessness that I always loved about my full-range electrostats. it is also minimizes horn colorations to a negligible level, so transparency and timbre correctness are high and again comparable to planars.

I tried a several amp topologies on my horns, including: hybrid (conventional tube in/transistor out), PP Class A triode, PP Class AB ultralinear, class D, Single ended hybrid, single ended pentode and Class A SS besides numerous SETs. The only amp that is the equal or better to the best SETs I have owned is my Aries Cerat Protos, which is not only single ended it is single stage that blends tubes and transistors into a single element.

After hearing what SET did to the sound, it set me off on a quest to understand why they sound the way they do. It was obvious that from a purely technical perspective they are inferior, so it had to be something significantly less obvious. THis is when I started to dig into the history of amp testing, THD etc. and that they realized pretty earlier on that THD was not sufficient to characterize the sound people heard. D.E.L. Shorter came up with a metric to weight the harmonics of distortion. It wasn't sufficient but pointed out what people were discovering that high order harmonics cause progressively more damage to the sound and need to be weighted in such a way to reflect that importance. Later models have taken into account the importance of masking and the ears own role in that masking along with a dependence on SPL.

What comes out of those studies indicates that the usual way of making an amp and lowering distortion is detrimental to the sound quality and that the older, cruder single ended triode without feedback is better conforming to the hearing mechanics and the way masking works. There might be more distortion but it more effectively "hides" in the blind spot of the human ear/brain auditory system.

If all amps were designed this way, then I would bet that a simple metric like THD and/or IMD might very well be indicative of sound quality because clearly, there is a point where the distortion is high enough to become audible. However, as they are clearly mostly not SET, then that simple metric utterly fails and in some ways works in the inverse because it is actually more telling about the manipulation used to get that low number.

So, I was drawn to SETs by the sound and then based on my research into why found that there is actually a pretty good psychoacoustic justification for it. Does that mean that all people will gravitate towards that sound? No, because like all areas of human psychology, the results are statistical and not with ultra high correlations. This means there are plenty of outliers. What I can say though, is that nearly all my audiophile friends who came to SET have stayed with SET (or at least something single ended). I can actually only think of one who didn't stay and that was because he went away from high sensitivity speakers. If he were to go back to horns I am pretty sure he would return to single ended amps. I do have one friend who refuses to go that route and I think it is because he actually likes things to be somewhat edgy sounding...there are those guys out there.
 
Everything you said makes sense to me. But having heard the AG Trio G3s...there was a lot to like, and I have been SF and Wilson back to back since 2004/5. And higher powered Class A SS for the majority of that time. But done right, it showed the prospect of real scale that other than the big Arrakis or the even bigger Genesis One, I had not heard from a big cone speaker before. Very very impressive and with a simple purity I found very impressive. More distilled down to the pure essence of the music than a mid-powered tube/Sonus Faber experience by a huge measure...while bringing the whole presentation to an unprecedented effortless scale level. And I am an enormous fan of the original SF Guarneris and Strads, both of which I owned for years.
I would recommend that you dip your toe into the water by getting a smaller horn system for a second system from the likes of Avantgarde (the new Uno G3 I heard last weekend sounded really good with a 300B amp), Odeon or Cessaro (the Opus 1 is outsanding for a small "horn" speaker). These will all be horn hybrids (meaning no horn bass). These are all pretty small but work well with SET and will sound quite good in a moderate sized room. If you find that this sound is for you then you can look to get something big. Perhaps the AG Mezzo if the trio is still too much or one of the bigger Acapellas or something wild like the Aries Cerat Aurora, which is horn + OB woofers.
 
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I would strictly avoid AG unos, duos, Cessaro smaller horns. Get them if you want but if disappointed don't blame SETs horns.
 
If you want to start with set amps and horns, I would recommend something like this. A well-built 300b amp and these horns. The fun factor is very high.
Aricaudio 300b ext. Powersupply.
super_300b_set_02_v2.png

and opera horn speaker 98db you get both for 11k€Opera_Consonance_M15_30_Anniversary_Stueck_600x600.jpg
 
These were sweet sounding at Warsaw from a Polish co. Scarab Gianni 1. I thought better sound than the Horns symphony and perfect for SET in a small room. They’re about 4ft high.
IMG_0072.jpeg
 
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These were sweet sounding at Warsaw from a Polish co. Scarab Gianni 1. I thought better sound than the Horns symphony and perfect for SET in a small room. They’re about 4ft high.
View attachment 139226
Don't like the whizzer on the mid horn...they already have a tweeter added.
 
If you want to start with set amps and horns, I would recommend something like this. A well-built 300b amp and these horns. The fun factor is very high.
Aricaudio 300b ext. Powersupply.
View attachment 139223

and opera horn speaker 98db you get both for 11k€View attachment 139225
nice looking amp...not so sure about the speakers. I think the Blumenhofer Corona 4 x 170P or 2 x 220P could be a good choice as well.
 
nice looking amp...not so sure about the speakers. I think the Blumenhofer Corona 4 x 170P or 2 x 220P could be a good choice as well.
They build really good pre and poweramps

I wouldn't exactly call them a bargain;).
The operas don't cost 8k for a b-stock pair. They are extremely well made, woddwork 120lbs crossover parts. The 15" woofer puts out a lot of pressure.
 
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They build really good pre and poweramps

I wouldn't exactly call them a bargain;).
The operas don't cost 8k for a b-stock pair. They are extremely well made, woddwork 120lbs crossover parts. The 15" woofer puts out a lot of pressure.
Yes, nice parts etc on the speakers but my experience with Chinese horns is that they haven't done their design homework and they sound generally not very good. Line Magnetic seems to be an exception.
 
They build really good pre and poweramps

I wouldn't exactly call them a bargain;).
The operas don't cost 8k for a b-stock pair. They are extremely well made, woddwork 120lbs crossover parts. The 15" woofer puts out a lot of pressure.
The tube amps look nice but I am not thrilled with the simple design of the circuit, using a simple cathode follower as a driver stage. I would like to see either transformer coupling or something like an SRPP, which has better drive. Cathode followers often sound kind of "meh" and impart that classic "warmth" to amps. My recent SETs that had transformer coupling (Aries Cerat Genus and Silvercore 2A3) both had serious grunt and were very transparent and not overly warm...just right.
 
The tube amps look nice but I am not thrilled with the simple design of the circuit, using a simple cathode follower as a driver stage. I would like to see either transformer coupling or something like an SRPP, which has better drive. Cathode followers often sound kind of "meh" and impart that classic "warmth" to amps. My recent SETs that had transformer coupling (Aries Cerat Genus and Silvercore 2A3) both had serious grunt and were very transparent and not overly warm...just right.
Ok.That shows me that you haven't looked at the amplifiers at all. Otherwise you would have noticed SRPP input, interstage good driver , only film caps PSU, three filter chokes really dead silent. Big names are more important to you than what comes out at the end.
I think you would be surprised at how well "china horns" works that you describe in such a derogatory way.
nobody is forcing you to buy it. I just wanted to give a good affordable way into the set tube and horns world
 
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Ok.That shows me that you haven't looked at the amplifiers at all. Otherwise you would have noticed SRPP input, interstage good driver , only film caps PSU, three filter chokes really dead silent. Big names are more important to you than what comes out at the end.
I think you would be surprised at how well "china horns" works that you describe in such a derogatory way.
nobody is forcing you to buy it. I just wanted to give a good affordable way into the set tube and horns world
I was talking about the 2A3 amp driver stage. I see that the 300B amp is somewhat different.
  • Input stage DC coupled to a 6SN7 cathode follower driver stage

My comment about the most China horns is based on previous experience with several that I have heard. As I said, what I have heard from Line Magnetic was good.

I have no idea if the amps from this company actually sound good...it depends also on the quality of the iron they use and the quality of the power supply.
 
Maximum output 43 watt gm 70 i estimate 1500 hours then game over.
According to the distributor for Europe, no one knows the answer to this, as there haven't been any failures as far. Note this is provided the GM70 tubes used in a SET42SE will bias at all, so the amp unmutes the outputs! Amplifon sells selected pairs, but you know how audiophiles are, @christoph and myself included, we'll try and roll anything, and we've occasionally tried a GM70 the amp would flat out refuse. It may be that the biasing circuit has a narrow window, but again, when a tube is good to go it's good to go. My SET42SE has a little over 1000 hours on it, and I probably listen to more music than most audiophiles (unless they're leaving the system on and aren't listening attentively, which I do not do). Note the data sheet claims 1000 hours minimum at continuous full power (where minimum refers to warranty for a military product). Can't say I'm surprised there haven't been any failures yet, as the amp has been on the market for fewer than 10 years and is built like a tank (or probably more to the point, given the designer's background, engineered and built to the "failure no option" standards of military radio equipment).

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
 
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