Shunyata Delta PC, coming or not?
- Thread starter Indy
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Hi,
We have not published pricing on the EF (Extreme Flexibility) power cords as yet. The three models will essentially mimic the parts and materials makeup of the new Delta, Alpha and Sigma power cords. We developed a pure-copper flat connector for these models that allows for easy connection to electronics with clearance issues near the IEC, such as Devialet, older Pass Aleph or Linn amps. Even DCS had a CD model with a restricted IEC. The EF models will not have the noise filter within the IEC, but will be identical in all other respects-- with the advantage of extreme ease in routing the cords in tight circumstances such as credenzas or tight rack spaces. Likely, pricing will be around $600 (Delta EF), $1200 (Alpha EF) and $2500 (Sigma EF). As with all our products, we have prototyped and field-tested each of the EF models and are very proud of their performance and value. As with all our products beyond Venom power cords and signal cables, the EF cords are hand made with ALL custom-designed-parts/materials. The EF cords will be foundational to any hi-rez system-- without the 5-figure pricing. We are waiting for the final parts, but the new products should be shipping in early February.
We have not published pricing on the EF (Extreme Flexibility) power cords as yet. The three models will essentially mimic the parts and materials makeup of the new Delta, Alpha and Sigma power cords. We developed a pure-copper flat connector for these models that allows for easy connection to electronics with clearance issues near the IEC, such as Devialet, older Pass Aleph or Linn amps. Even DCS had a CD model with a restricted IEC. The EF models will not have the noise filter within the IEC, but will be identical in all other respects-- with the advantage of extreme ease in routing the cords in tight circumstances such as credenzas or tight rack spaces. Likely, pricing will be around $600 (Delta EF), $1200 (Alpha EF) and $2500 (Sigma EF). As with all our products, we have prototyped and field-tested each of the EF models and are very proud of their performance and value. As with all our products beyond Venom power cords and signal cables, the EF cords are hand made with ALL custom-designed-parts/materials. The EF cords will be foundational to any hi-rez system-- without the 5-figure pricing. We are waiting for the final parts, but the new products should be shipping in early February.
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All pricing is for standard length power cords (1.8 meter), there is a very small price reduction for 1 meter lengths because the hand labor is the most significant cost in our products beyond Venom Series power cords.
Regarding your pricing question; your retail price in EU represents exactly the difference that includes shipping cost, VAT (Value Added Tax) and a small profit for the distributor, who has to sell to dealers. There are some cable manufacturers who get around the obvious US vs. EU or Asia pricing differences by inflating their retail prices. Some of the $10k and up retail prices for cable products include artificial price-inflation so the price looks the same world-wide. In addition, some companies bloat their pricing further, so they can give "special deals" to a distributor or dealer based on volume sales or large orders. We compete with these companies for business and dealers/distributors tell us what we are competing with, so I know we don't have the same built in $ incentives as some brands. There are some US dealers who won't work with us based solely on the fact that we have normal (electronics and speaker margins) pricing policies. They would rather make 65%-80% on a $40k-$80k cable sale, than a standard margin on products that cost more normative -US made-- retail prices. Our ace in the hole is Caelin's design capability--which seems to get better every year, and lower retail prices versus some of our competitors with the new-car pricing on cables.,
Long and short? Despite the difference between US and International pricing, we pay strict attention to our costs in producing the products and the retail pricing. It's pretty simple math for us, but I understand the question and the differences you see and why that may occur.
We have some of the finest distributors in the world. These fine people work with our brand not because they make great $ in margin on sub-five figure power and signal cables; they work with us because we make amazing-performance products with real technology at ( generally lower than the rest) well-reasoned retail prices. It does cost more than US retail to purchase our products in the EU (it also costs us more to make those products due to the physical differences, such as the EU outlets and connectors -single versus duplex, added filters), but the value of our products is evident and our products re-sale value is high for good reason. We explain how and why the products are unique; what patents apply and why they cost what they do. Still, It's understandable why your question and many like it come up.
Take a moment when you can and compare Venom Signal cable to another 3x-4x the price brand or Denali to a $10k+ power conditioner and you may come to understand what we are trying to accomplish and why we remain competitive in a volatile-business and world market .
You are paying US price + ship, VAT, ( +construction differences) and a small added Margin for the vendors. There is an explanation in terms of why you may not notice differences in US/EU/Asia pricing with some other cable brands. Look at the retail prices. If the retail prices seem artificially high and the EU versus US prices are the same? Well, they probably shouldn't be. I may be painting with a broad brush but, how much should very high-performance "cables" really cost. There are very real costs associated with sales via overseas channels. Most HE speakers, electronics, heck, even appliances and furniture made in a country outside a given market carry added import and distribution costs leading to higher retail prices. Cables are an outlier due to their easy to ship nature, so sometimes these higher costs are buried underneath artificially inflated pricing. We decided not to do that for some of the reasons I've mentioned.
Feel free to follow up via e-mail if I can be of any help.
Best regards,
Grant
grant@shunyata.com
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No, no offense taken at all. Thank you for your e-mail as well. My goal was only to explain our perspective on pricing and why there are some differences between US and EU retail prices.
I've long recognized the pricing differences between markets; perhaps because early on, Universal pricing was a tool we examined and chose not to compete with. We don't have a Universal Pricing strategy that can hide import and construction cost-differences between some products and markets because to do that would add 30%-40% to our retail prices across our lines. The benefit is, you will never have to pay inflated retail prices. In addition, the value of our current model products is very high because the products are not used as commodities or discounted disproportionally. The negative is that you will see higher than US retail pricing in your market.
Power distributors for EU require very different, more involved labor and construction because of the outlets (single versus duplex) which increases our cost in production. There are also chassis differences and internal filtering (double the number in EU models compared to US). Even the power cords cost us more to produce because of the connector difference. Then, it really all comes down to shipping, import-tax and more hands handling products in terms of your costs. Our amazing EU Distributors are aware of the issues and we work together to keep pricing as low as possible compared to US.
Product retail-cost differences are an unfortunate part of every industry that deals with importing. With cables more than other types of products, such as electronics and speakers, its tempting to set one Universal price across all markets. This minimizes the impact of grey market (overseas shipping) problems (with easy to ship products) and additionally gives the manufacturer greater discount flexibility within the home market.
Cables have traditionally been a higher profit-margin commodity as opposed to speakers, electronics and especially video products which carry lower margins, typically. Some dealers look to cable as a + margin make-up product because they make insufficient margins to support their business by selling flat-screens or electronics. Or, dealers use cables as the way of saying "thank you" to the customer who buys an entire expensive system and then realizes, "oh yeah, I need cables too" and the dealer says, "I'll tell you what, because you spent all this money on a system, I'm going to make you a good deal on cables"--and that's how its been--more so in the US than overseas. Our products are not made for that type of sale or as a commodity to be bartered with. We make very-serious lower-priced, performance added products that are highly customized.
Other than Caelin's design expertise, our investments in custom-parts, measurement and explainable science, its our (based on our costs) pricing that explains why we are doing well 18 years after we got started. All of us that run our respective departments are still here, which also says something pretty cool.
There are great cable companies we are impressed by who make finely crafted, value-added products such as George Cardas, Ray Kimber and others. There are companies who use real science and lower retail prices that offer good value proportionate to cost and I would count us among them. Whether in cables, components or speakers, it helps to ask questions and stay well-informed, whether about science or pricing. We appreciate questions, whether on forums, by phone or e-mail.
Best regards,
Grant
I've long recognized the pricing differences between markets; perhaps because early on, Universal pricing was a tool we examined and chose not to compete with. We don't have a Universal Pricing strategy that can hide import and construction cost-differences between some products and markets because to do that would add 30%-40% to our retail prices across our lines. The benefit is, you will never have to pay inflated retail prices. In addition, the value of our current model products is very high because the products are not used as commodities or discounted disproportionally. The negative is that you will see higher than US retail pricing in your market.
Power distributors for EU require very different, more involved labor and construction because of the outlets (single versus duplex) which increases our cost in production. There are also chassis differences and internal filtering (double the number in EU models compared to US). Even the power cords cost us more to produce because of the connector difference. Then, it really all comes down to shipping, import-tax and more hands handling products in terms of your costs. Our amazing EU Distributors are aware of the issues and we work together to keep pricing as low as possible compared to US.
Product retail-cost differences are an unfortunate part of every industry that deals with importing. With cables more than other types of products, such as electronics and speakers, its tempting to set one Universal price across all markets. This minimizes the impact of grey market (overseas shipping) problems (with easy to ship products) and additionally gives the manufacturer greater discount flexibility within the home market.
Cables have traditionally been a higher profit-margin commodity as opposed to speakers, electronics and especially video products which carry lower margins, typically. Some dealers look to cable as a + margin make-up product because they make insufficient margins to support their business by selling flat-screens or electronics. Or, dealers use cables as the way of saying "thank you" to the customer who buys an entire expensive system and then realizes, "oh yeah, I need cables too" and the dealer says, "I'll tell you what, because you spent all this money on a system, I'm going to make you a good deal on cables"--and that's how its been--more so in the US than overseas. Our products are not made for that type of sale or as a commodity to be bartered with. We make very-serious lower-priced, performance added products that are highly customized.
Other than Caelin's design expertise, our investments in custom-parts, measurement and explainable science, its our (based on our costs) pricing that explains why we are doing well 18 years after we got started. All of us that run our respective departments are still here, which also says something pretty cool.
There are great cable companies we are impressed by who make finely crafted, value-added products such as George Cardas, Ray Kimber and others. There are companies who use real science and lower retail prices that offer good value proportionate to cost and I would count us among them. Whether in cables, components or speakers, it helps to ask questions and stay well-informed, whether about science or pricing. We appreciate questions, whether on forums, by phone or e-mail.
Best regards,
Grant
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What is gained by using a power cord with noise reduction when it is used to power a component off a Denali?
I'm particularly wondering about the case of a music server. Per Shunyata's website, the Venom Digital, for example, benefits by "reducing the output of high-frequency noise and preventing this noise from affecting the performance of other components". Shouldn't that be less necessary with a Denali?
Caelin or Grant can better answer this than me. But, I believe the NR power cords stop the component noise right where the noise exits at the IEC of the component. For example, if you have a NR power cord plugged into a CD player, the noise is filtered/stopped right at the IEC inlet of the CD player. So the noise never even makes it down the power cord and into your power distributor.
This is how I understand it.
Hi,
The power cord to the wall from a Denali 6000T or S model does not need to be an NR, Alpha HC or Sigma power cord because of the Denali's efficiency at eliminating line-noise. We have developed a series of power cords (coming soon) called the EF (extreme-flexibility) power cords, which are essentially Delta, Alpha, Sigma models in every way but without the IEC imbedded noise filters. These can be used for the Denali to wall connection should someone want to use them. The EF cords also are great in tight spaces or with limited-space IEC's like Devialet, Linn, Pass Aleph and some other narrow IEC opening components. The EF cords use a flat IEC connector rather than a round one, but still have our pure Tellurian-copper internal metallurgy, CopperConn.
That said, noise exists throughout the system, not just on the AC line or between Denali and the components. Proximal, interconnected electronic environments whether a medical, studio or audio system, are bathed in a virtual sea of RFI and EMI noise. Whatever can be done to minimize the propagated EMI/RFI at the component power supplies will prevent noise from being shared with other components nearby. Regardless of the power conditioner, many of our power cords will objectively reduce noise at the component's power supply. This benefits the system in obvious, easy to hear and measure ways.
There is no such thing as a single-point panacea for massive amount of EMI/RFI/AC noise that affects system performance. This is why we developed a Distributed Power Conditioning Concept for noise, with options for the wall (Defender), multi-outlet power conditioners suited to specific systems and the 4 tiers of noise-reducing power cords for electronics.
Thanks for the question, I hope this helps provide some answers.
Best regards,
Grant
Yes it does. Thanks so much for taking the time to respond.
One more question though. Back to the computer used only as a music server. In my case the only connection this computer makes to my audio system is via an ethernet cable to a streaming endpoint. Would there be any benefit from use of a power cord better than the Venom Digital?
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Hi,
The new Delta NR (Noise Reduction), Alpha NR and Sigma NR power cords are all large gauge power cords at ten, eight and six-gauge respectively, which is more than heavy enough to power amplifiers of any kind. The Alpha NR has the same gauge as the Alpha HC. It will be improved over the Alpha HC in terms of performance on all components and has a new aesthetic, with the same head-shells as Sigma, but its not night-to-day improvement, or worth switching from the HC to the NR for.
The power cord chosen to connect any of our power-distributors should be at least the equal of the best power cord going to components that are plugged into the units. In essence, the power cord to the wall increases in importance based on the number of components going into the distributor. At four or more components, the power cord to the wall should be the best quality power cord in the system, even a grade above the power cords on components.
The NR Series power cords will be shipping in about 2 weeks. The current models continue to be available through our dealers on promotion.
I hope this is of some help!
Best regards,
Grant
Grant,
I'm a little confused. On the Downloadable PDF on your website it says that the Alpha HC is a 7 gauge cord. So, would an Alpha NR actually be a step backwards for some applications?
Or does the VTX geometry the trade off with all but the most high current applications?
Thanks
Hi,
There is no trade-off or downside with the NR model. If anything our aggregate gauge ratings are conservative. The Alpha NR measures better than the HC in terms of peak current (DTCD) and in terms of comparative performance, has more weight and impact in the lower octaves. While its not a dramatic difference, the improvement over the HC are perceived wider-bandwidth, background silence and impact in sound when used on an amp or Hydra, but that can also apply to pre-amps, DAC's, CD players and Analog sources. If someone has an Alpha HC already I would not advocate they switch, unless that upgrade is to a Sigma model and the system merits that kind of upgrade expense. As always, the NR models will find their way into the market in the coming weeks and people can compare.
Best regards,
Grant
Thank you for the information Grant. Will the Shunyata website be changed to show these new products soon? I am looking forward to seeing pictures of the cables, and also, an in depth explanation of the KPIP (Kinetic Phase Inversion Process) if possible.
Hi,
Yes, the new products will appear on the website as they come available and we have photography.
The Kinetic Phase inversion Process has a video describing some of what it is, but more of what it does. We publish a great deal of information regarding the tech, materials and parts in the majority of our products, including seven published Patents and many that are pending. There are some processes-- wire, metals and parts treatment being among them, that Caelin prefers to keep to himself.
I would say of all the patents and custom-parts and tech Caelin has developed, the KPIP machines and process is number one in terms of what that does to improve power and signal related products. Two-days of conditioning with KPIP will improve new signal or power products beyond what is possible, even with years of normal use, burn-in devices or other metals treatment processes such as cryogenics. We will be expanding the use of this process to the new reference-lines of signal cables as they become available. Normal break-in of one-two weeks will become a thing of the past. KPIP products require 1-2 days of settling after shipment to achieve full performance potential. You should be able to experience the fully realized performance of new products almost immediately. There will be no more days 2-5 funk, or temporary drop in performance. Given the number of customers, dealers and recording professionals I have had to talk off the "day-3 break-in" ledge over the past 18 years, its a godsend in terms of getting the best out of new products without the wait.
Best regards,
Grant
Thanks again for the information Grant. This new KPIP technology seems very interesting.
Regards.
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