Silver cable break in
- Thread starter Geir
- Start date
I have had Argento flow digital cable at home over two periods of time, and it is very good, even special. Very neutral and natural sound, beautiful midrange. It steps out of the way, and lets the music do the talking. It really can make your digital frontend next level.
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As an engineer and cable manufacturer, I had a good laugh!
Not sure where the belief that silver cables need specific break-in procedures, or take extremely long time to settle, come from. I am curious what the technical explanation with regards to breaking in a wire is. I understand that the insulation may need some time to settle, but the metal itself... naahh. That the metal structure of an interconnect changes permanently by playing music through it sound like an illusion. The cable industry loves the "break-in"-dilemma: "Return the cables within 14 days for a refund. The cables need at least 500h break-in." Hi Guys,
I’ve recently bought and installed interconnects, OCC 5N silver single crystal with pure silver contacts on RCA and silver plated copper on the Din connectors.
I’ve probably had the system powered up for about 7 weeks now and I’ve probably had about 50 hours of actual listening, although like I said my system is never switched off.
The sound is still not right. The cohesion I expect from silver cables isn’t there. Today I replaced the cables with my standard Naim cables and although the upper detail wasn’t there it was a more sweeter, softer and truth be told more enjoyable listen. There is more warmth and realness to the midrange.
How long do I need to allow for the silver cables to burn in. I guess it doesn’t help that the connectors are also pure copper/silver. This is getting exhausting now.
I’ve recently bought and installed interconnects, OCC 5N silver single crystal with pure silver contacts on RCA and silver plated copper on the Din connectors.
I’ve probably had the system powered up for about 7 weeks now and I’ve probably had about 50 hours of actual listening, although like I said my system is never switched off.
The sound is still not right. The cohesion I expect from silver cables isn’t there. Today I replaced the cables with my standard Naim cables and although the upper detail wasn’t there it was a more sweeter, softer and truth be told more enjoyable listen. There is more warmth and realness to the midrange.
How long do I need to allow for the silver cables to burn in. I guess it doesn’t help that the connectors are also pure copper/silver. This is getting exhausting now.
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I think you need a lot more time with music playing. You need a signal going through, not just powered on. I would at least give them 200-300 hours of music, but when I started with my Argento the frustration lasted even longer. It could be you never will be completely happy with the cables, but I have experienced things chance in a fundamental way with more time. Better holography, deeper bass, less harshness.
I am amazed how fast silver tarnishes. I wonder if break in might really be, oxidizing to a softer sound. I cleaned some fairly new power cables with silver over copper contacts and was shocked how black the cleaning cloth was. And how dramatic the sound change was. Same for some speaker cables I have. Pure silver foil. A big change when the tarnish is removed.
An engineer told me, silver is unique in that the tarnish is more conductive than the clean metal. Maybe that is the case. I have no idea. What I am pretty confident of is the tarnish is very audible. It really dulls the clarity and creates a haze.
An engineer told me, silver is unique in that the tarnish is more conductive than the clean metal. Maybe that is the case. I have no idea. What I am pretty confident of is the tarnish is very audible. It really dulls the clarity and creates a haze.
i have also read that the tarnish contributes to better sound. I will persevere with the burn in process. This isn’t the first silver cable I’ve owned although it’s single crystal structure (solid core) is very stubborn. I’m just getting a lot of upper frequency detail and the lower detail isn’t there yet. Well it’s sort of there but it’s not a cohesive sound. Very separated and unatural.
Is there a need for a cable burn in cooker here?
I don’t think I can wait. I barely get time to listen these days and at this rate it could take well over a year to get the playback hours required to properly break it in. What’s even worse is that I also have had a tonearm cable made from the same solid core wire. This could possibly never break in naturally considering the very low output of a moving iron Grado cartridge.
Is there a need for a cable burn in cooker here?
I don’t think I can wait. I barely get time to listen these days and at this rate it could take well over a year to get the playback hours required to properly break it in. What’s even worse is that I also have had a tonearm cable made from the same solid core wire. This could possibly never break in naturally considering the very low output of a moving iron Grado cartridge.
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When the day dawns that we can explain exactly, at an atomic level how an electric current propagates through a cable, then we may be able to explain how run in works. In the meantime, all we have is subjective ‘expert ears’ and speculation (unproven hypotheses). In the past 4 years I have run-in a large number of power supply upgrades that involved Mundorf Silver/Gold cabling and gradually I observed the exact same pattern each time, which fit with the above descriptions. It also took up to 500 hours to achieve the level of perfection I was expectingAs an engineer and cable manufacturer, I had a good laugh!
Some would call it expectation bias or ‘user conditioning’ but that infers a conscious component to the process. That would not explain that during the running in process I would often catch myself using my iPad to surf internet items while music was playing, whereas the fully run-in system was overwhelmingly involving and generated such intense emotions that stray thoughts were simply obliterated. That’s an entirely subconscious reaction.
Also, let me ask you. Can you explain, again at the atomic quantum level what happens when a cable is degaused or what cryogenic cooling does, because they both make changes to the atomic or crystal structure. In the case of cryogenic treatment one can actually see the changes to crystal boundaries Under a high power election microscope.
Our level of knowledge of how cables affect the resulting sound quality is still pretty much at the ‘unconscious ignorance’ stage…..we don’t know what we don’t know. All denial of the subjective observations of change achieves is to ensure we remain at that level. The problem isn‘t that the changes don’t happen. The problem is that our knowledge is insufficient to explain why.
I agree that there is a dilemma of 14 day trials vs. 500 hour break-in, but that doesn‘t mean that the break-in doesn’t exist or take 500 hours. It just means that either demos need to be done with pre-run-in components, or that potential customers take an initial listen and decide if the changes heard in the initial period warrant purchase. This has been my approach. Over the years Ive learned that if a component sounds really good and brings specific improvements at the onset, it will eventually sound even better, but will sound considerably worse during burn in, On the other hand, if I don‘t like what the component does after say 5 days, then burn in won’t suddenly transform it. There has to be initial benefits before everything goes to hell for a few weeks until the final transformation happens.
A brilliant reply. Personally I wouldn’t have bothered because these “engineers” are likely very poor at their job. If they truly believe that science has it all figured out then I have nothing further to add and they expose themselves for their lack of knowledge.
Likewise I have heard cables and components burn in. It’s happened many times. I say that because I’ve also bought used products that were already burnt in or I didn’t have them long enough to notice any significant change. Most of the time that it has happened, I wasn’t expecting it or even looking out for it. An example is when my previous set of silver cables were installed into my system. I couldn’t be sure how much time had passed but it must’ve been about a year or so because I was happy with my system and had forgotten about any upgrades I had made. I sat down to listen and I could not believe the difference. There was a cohesion and flow to the music. The music had body, timing, impact, sparkly sweet treble. Not knowing what had just happened I fiddled around with the system and removed the silver cables. The sound lost it’s magic.
Explain the psychoacoustic of that then you experts. Did I imagine all of that? stop pooping on other peoples findings because you are too ignorant to try for yourself.
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Do you ever have a day you sit down and fall totally engrossed into the music and other days your fidgeting, flipping through media and reading your phone. Even more simplistic, do you ever get out of bed and feel tired vs get out of bed feet hitting the floor and happy for the day. Would you deny that your psychological state has any influence on your listening impressions.
I still find in my system 24 hours shapes the majority of the sound. I agree, wires change. I insert them all the time to test in my system. I do an initial drop and listen. Most of the time I hear smearing and maybe bloated or hard. The next day its a new story. The wire sounds like it sound. I then leave the wire in the system for weeks. Not to let it burn. I find what we are "listening" for can be dramatically different than how we take it in when not paying attention to what our systems sound like. When we are just playing music. I want the general overall impression. Then I go and do back and forth again. In the weeks later round of back and forth my impression compared to the 24 hours test do not change.
If 270kkms has a wire he that does not integrate into his system for whatever reason. That does not mean he bought a wire that is not a good wire. To me it means he has a wire that does not integrate or present how he wants it too. If he has other wires he likes much better, why try and force it. Use what works in your system and presents as you like. That wire may be magic in some other system.
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so according to your logic it’s my mood that has me thinking that it sounds different. I think these statements feed into peoples scepticism. I have repeated my finding too many times. I know it to be the truth and I’m not here to convince you.
What I am asking for is somebody’s advice who has had a similar experience and can share his thoughts and findings about the matter.
What I’m not here to do is prove anything. I don’t understand why some people are so eager to try to disprove others. I can only put it down to deluded idea of self importance, attention seeking tactic or insecurity. Nobody cares, move along.
What I am asking for is somebody’s advice who has had a similar experience and can share his thoughts and findings about the matter.
What I’m not here to do is prove anything. I don’t understand why some people are so eager to try to disprove others. I can only put it down to deluded idea of self importance, attention seeking tactic or insecurity. Nobody cares, move along.
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For anybody interested I’ve put about ten more hours into the cables. I just left the system on and went to work. This is the only way I can expect to rack up the necessary burn in hours.
There is an improvement for sure. The sound is not as disjointed anymore. That flow “liquid” presentation is now noticeable.it’s sweeter sounding and not as sharp or bright as before. Still waiting for the midrange and bass to become solid and full.
There is an improvement for sure. The sound is not as disjointed anymore. That flow “liquid” presentation is now noticeable.it’s sweeter sounding and not as sharp or bright as before. Still waiting for the midrange and bass to become solid and full.
Do you know who John Curl? Or Robert Crump?As an engineer and cable manufacturer, I had a good laugh!
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As of this Monday I’ll be experiencing Albedo silver cables. Oz is coming once again to our home. Will they make a substantial difference - I don’t know! They will at least be temporarily be replacing our Shunyata Omega cables.
The Albedo cables I’ll be listening too will already be broken in. While they will have to settle in my system before I may comment upon their quality, I’ll be listening closely. I’m excited to see what they may or may not do?
The Albedo cables I’ll be listening too will already be broken in. While they will have to settle in my system before I may comment upon their quality, I’ll be listening closely. I’m excited to see what they may or may not do?
Hi Geir,
Did you made a compare with the Organic audio référence AES vs Argento AES ? I only tried Audiocadabra AES and Kimber Orchid AES , the Kimber is good but i have had a better result with Wireworld Gold Starlight 7 Spdif .
Best regards
Philippe
Hi. I have not compared Organic AES with Argento. I have however compared Organic audio reference power cord with Argento power cord. There is quite a big difference in terms of resolution, bass depth, and stereo image is wider and deeper with the Argento. The thing is if using cables to tune the rig, the Organic cables can be used to reduce harshness, and they sound very natural. Some high end system can sound a bit bright, if that is the case, one Organic cable, can help the overall balance of the system. The distributor of Argento/Organic nearby often demonstrate equipment with Organic power cords on the source. When it comes to Argento digital cables, I have only tested the Argento Flow BNC, and it can be a crucial improvement in the sound quality if used between a great source and Dac. My guess is that the difference can be compared with the power cords.
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