That has always been the allure!
Your horn loads the driver down to the cutoff frequency of the horn. How do you prevent excursion of the diaphragm at frequencies below that?
Single Driver Thoughts?
- Thread starter Republicoftexas69
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Your horn loads the driver down to the cutoff frequency of the horn. How do you prevent excursion of the diaphragm at frequencies below that?
I looked up the details on their website. Here's what they explain:
"The drivers operate in a unique 1.5-way arrangement.
The speakers are equipped with a 4-position switch for adjusting the full range speaker. Position 0 of the switch allows listening without any correction, position 1,2,3 correct the bandwidth by 1,5 dB each respectively."
They use two different drivers. I guess one is running without a filter and the woofer has a simple low-pass filter. The adjustment mentioned above affects the volume level of the wide-band driver (with a set of resistors?) from what I understand.
But what did you think of the sound in the video posted above?
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The sound seems OK but its not complex material and doesn't sound like its got much volume to it. That's the trick to getting 'full range' drivers to show their best qualities.
The problem of getting the bass excursion off of the drivers is the same as it is for many less efficient speakers. If you put the crossover frequency too low, the cap needed to do the job is large and expensive and pretty well guaranteed to mess with the sound. So some designers build a small box around the backside of the driver so as to mechanically limit the excursion. That means that driver is in parallel with the bass driver which might be crossed over using a choke.
This doesn't work so well if your intended market is lower powered amps with no feedback. The problem is that the speaker is likely going to be 4 Ohms and that can knock out an octave of bass response in the output transformer just moving to the 4 Ohm tap.
So the woofer (or subwoofer) should be self-powered to avoid this latter situation, which likely would get you more bass extension than any SET could ever muster.
OTOH if you really were going to use a crossover, most larger drivers like a 15" have no problem going to 500 or 800Hz. That's why speakers using a 500 or 800Hz horn are often seen with 15" woofers. The capacitors needed in the crossover need not be so profound. Of course if you did this with a 'full range' driver you wouldn't need it to be much more than 5 or 6 inches in diameter.
The problem of getting the bass excursion off of the drivers is the same as it is for many less efficient speakers. If you put the crossover frequency too low, the cap needed to do the job is large and expensive and pretty well guaranteed to mess with the sound. So some designers build a small box around the backside of the driver so as to mechanically limit the excursion. That means that driver is in parallel with the bass driver which might be crossed over using a choke.
This doesn't work so well if your intended market is lower powered amps with no feedback. The problem is that the speaker is likely going to be 4 Ohms and that can knock out an octave of bass response in the output transformer just moving to the 4 Ohm tap.
So the woofer (or subwoofer) should be self-powered to avoid this latter situation, which likely would get you more bass extension than any SET could ever muster.
OTOH if you really were going to use a crossover, most larger drivers like a 15" have no problem going to 500 or 800Hz. That's why speakers using a 500 or 800Hz horn are often seen with 15" woofers. The capacitors needed in the crossover need not be so profound. Of course if you did this with a 'full range' driver you wouldn't need it to be much more than 5 or 6 inches in diameter.
I can't say the sound is my cup of tea. It lacks subtlety - I like a more relaxing, easy sound, less "in your face". I don't know what amp they are using, but I'm not sure it is doing the speakers a favor. Who knows... Listening to that track on Qobuz with my headphones, it is actually quite pleasant. Not so much through the video.
Bass excursion may be an issue, but there are others.
Bass excursion causes Doppler Effect distortion which is audible as congestion. That's why simpler material sounds so good on 'full range' drivers as long as its not played too loud. High frequency beaming is always an issue too.
I really don't know how any serious assessment can be made from internet videos. There are too many variables! For example I bet I could make any of them sound better just by using a set of Neumann large condenser microphones. I've yet to see anyone post a video claiming to use actually good microphones...
There are some videos made with pretty good quality microphones, but yes, it's hard to figure out what the real sound is like. You certainly lose a lot of resolution through a phone video.
I know about the Doppler effect. What I meant is that the overall tonal balance seems off, and I would be curious to see what frequency response measurements of this speaker look like.
I don't know how you can tell. That's exactly the sort of thing microphones can cause. When I see YT videos all I can tell is 'yes' there's sound there... but actually assessing anything from it is something I avoid.
I said "seems", out of caution. Phone microphones obviously affect the frequency response as well, but to a limited degree. People even do frequency response measurements with their phones, and they are not as precise, but they are pretty consistent with what you get using better microphones...
There are so many parameters involved in a speaker's sound, I wonder if it is even meaningful to discuss these "technical" aspects. You can argue for a long time about the importance of the Doppler effect, about beaming, crossovers, speaker driver membranes, etc..., but at the end of the day, who really cares aside for those that design speakers?
People who claim to know so much about speaker design make it sound like they have the "recipe" for perfect sound, but in fact they don't. If they did, we would all be listening to the same speakers.
It's better to simply listen and decide for yourself if something sounds good or not.
People who claim to know so much about speaker design make it sound like they have the "recipe" for perfect sound, but in fact they don't. If they did, we would all be listening to the same speakers.
It's better to simply listen and decide for yourself if something sounds good or not.
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Anyone that likes to play the system with a bit of volume and especially if the material has bass in it should be concerned about Doppler Effect, although they don't need to know what that is other than it can cause congestion which is easily heard. Its a major reason why there are crossovers.
If you really want that direct sound that you get when there's no crossover between the amp and speaker, perhaps a three way system using an electronic crossover before the amp is a solution. The issue there is an additional gain block in the system in addition to a preamp of course- a crossover with a Master gain control and some input switching would be a solution but I've yet to see such a product. That isn't surprising as there really isn't a market.
An educated consumer is the best consumer. Technical aspects are good to understand so you can buy the right speaker for you... one that matches your set of priorities the best. Speakers are different because designers have different priorities. Perfection is impossible as priorities determine which compromises to make.
An example... a single driver may offer some of the best in acoustic guitar and female vocal reproduction, but it falls apart if asked to reproduce anything with significant bass or complexity. It also can't match a dedicated woofer or tweeter at the frequency extremes. An inefficient 4-way may do well with complex music but it may be lacking on simple acoustic music, especially at lower price points. If you spend a lot of cash you may be able to afford a system that does both really well, but if you never listen to a symphony you may have spent on something you never use, or could've bought a system that's better for the kind of music you listen to the most.
IMO, a good (expensive) passive xo doesn't hinder the sound. What you gain from having a dedicated woofer and tweeter is well worth it for all kinds of music. A single driver is best used as a wideband midrange driver with the exception of a system where very low-volume reproduction is the top priority.
All of which is why Bache Audio's augmented wideband designs are my favorite speakers for small to medium sized listening rooms. A wide band driver covers most of the frequency range (500hz to 10khz in the case of my heavily modified/upgraded Metro 001's), augmented by a woofer and a super tweeter. The design provides the coherence and immediacy of a single driver speaker without the typical deficiencies at the frequency extremes, and performs well with all types of music.
Yeah, this is my preference too as I don't prioritize complex classical music.
I have a 330 Hz LeCleach horn with a wideband driver covering from 400-12000 Hz, a 15" woofer and a Fostex T500 tweeter.
I listen to very little orchestral music-most of my listening is jazz, blues, and R&B with some small ensemble classical. Given my small listening room the Bache speakers are ideal for my listening preferences. The woofer is Eton's top of the line 8 inch driver, the super tweeter is the Fostex FT96-EX2, and the wide band driver is a 4" bamboo Tang Band which designer Greg Belman says has yet to be surpassed by anything else he's heard for this and similar applications.
I am doing something similar, just a bit bigger. Supravox 8" widebander with 15" WVL woofer and Seas Exotic tweeter 1.25". Crossover points are 180Hz and 6KHz (first order).
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