Sme 3012 R

I know this old arm is good but I don’t know why David,Rockitman,Tang,Ron,Mike
Use or will use having top tonearm like Sat,EliteAxiom,Black Beauty,Durand

Why 3012 is so special?
I never had and I don’t understand
Only to know for my curiosity
Regards
Gian

 

Same here. I guess only when they have a few arms in their system, then they will understand that there is no performance disadvantages having used phono cables and also joint with replaceable head shell of 3012R. My Axiom and SAT with fixed headshell and wire run straight to phono don’t make any sonic advantages to the SME. I am a gear head and materialistic. Using the 3012R for me is just like wearing a Zegna suit with timberland shoes. But, Soundwise, no disadvantages period.

Kind regards,
Tang

Micro mentioned it before... perhaps on some less well designed TT's that are perhaps damped improperly, the unvarnished/un-homogenized music flow may be too much for them. The 3012R is a raw music flow pipeline. It seems to do nothing to the music coming off the platter. Perhaps that is why SME offered a liquid damping trough for those experience varying degrees of unpleasant feedback on TT's not up to the task of the 3012R ?

 

absolute marketing BS !

Spot on.....

 

Unfortunately you are reacting emotionally to Davey post and his poor formulation of the several alternatives of tonearm implementation and its characteristics. Headshell connections have a sound signature - I have single pin and double pin SME headshells and IMHO the double pin sounds better. And yes, it is not a question of being rigid, it is a question of acoustic impedance. Several people here use alternative headshells, I have seen people who prefer using the washer at the connection, something I tried, even thin Teflon, and personally dislike.

When SME developed the SME V they moved to fixed headshell and properly explained why - only later they introduced the removable headshell in this model. Graham also explained why they preferred to have a wand,not a headshell.

And believe it or not, any connection joining two different materials develops noise due to Seeback effect. Weather it subjectively affects sound quality or not is open to debate.

I only presented the "wire metal sound" as an example that science can not explain our beliefs concerning sound signatures, that are too individual and different between our members to be considered as a general belief.

IMHO WBF should be a forum open to debate, not a shouting place. But yes, trolling is a nuisance and annoying.

BTW, as today the weather is too hot to use tubes or class A I am listening to the EMT using my old Quad 606 and 34 preamplfier in the SoundLabs - and I am enjoying it!

Honestly, when I listen to music using different arms carts, distinguishing two different excellent arms are already difficult enough. And when I distinguished that I couldn’t tell if the differences come from head shell connection, types of screws or washers. These knit picking variables could possible make teeny tiny differences if they make any differences at all. The overall sonic satisfaction I get from this SME just makes me disregard all these technically justifiable variables. I don’t know how to express my honest opinion in such a way it would not sound like a hype or brainwashed by ddk. But this SME is really the best price performance and one of the best arm at any price point imo.

Kind regards,
Tang

 

Perhaps that is why SME offered a liquid damping trough for those experience varying degrees of unpleasant feedback on TT's not up to the task of the 3012R ?

The more you say the more we AS owners look like a narcissist, dear Christian.

Tang

 

Unfortunately you are reacting emotionally to Davey post and his poor formulation of the several alternatives of tonearm implementation and its characteristics. Headshell connections have a sound signature - I have single pin and double pin SME headshells and IMHO the double pin sounds better. And yes, it is not a question of being rigid, it is a question of acoustic impedance. Several people here use alternative headshells, I have seen people who prefer using the washer at the connection, something I tried, even thin Teflon, and personally dislike.

Nothing emotional Francisco, I just explained why Chris was right calling it BS. You’re diverting the subject, changing headshell types was not the subject of his posts, this is a complete separate conversation involving many variables.

When SME developed the SME V they moved to fixed headshell and properly explained why - only later they introduced the removable headshell in this model. Graham also explained why they preferred to have a wand,not a headshell.

Basically connections never went away, and there are still highend manufacturers with great multilinkage designs!

And believe it or not, any connection joining two different materials develops noise due to Seeback effect. Weather it subjectively affects sound quality or not is open to debate.

You’re speculating seebeck effect is thermoelectric, do you hear any noise with the 3012 even from one’s that have been in use for decades? Any from other brands with removable headshell or wand?

I only presented the "wire metal sound" as an example that science can not explain our beliefs concerning sound signatures, that are too individual and different between our members to be considered as a general belief.

What does that have to do with mechanical linkages and how they’re used? Are you saying that conductors do not have clear audible sonic signatures? Which part of the post discussed personal preference or debate of sonic qualities?

IMHO WBF should be a forum open to debate, not a shouting place. But yes, trolling is a nuisance and annoying.

Dimissing BS and trolling isn’t shouting, what were the debating points in Davey’s post as presented. I’m not shouting but you’re taking the thread OT, do you want to debate that too ?

BTW, as today the weather is too hot to use tubes or class A I am listening to the EMT using my old Quad 606 and 34 preamplfier in the SoundLabs - and I am enjoying it!

Always a pleasure, but weren’t some of the same people dismissing the 927 based on it’s rumble figures ?

david

 

Always a pleasure, but weren’t some of the same people dismissing the 927 based on it’s rumble figures ?

david

You can find 100's of pages disparaging EMT's because of rumble. But when you listen to them.....

 

The more you say the more we AS owners look like a narcissist, dear Christian.

Tang

You're not a narcissist when you have the best...you're just a man of taste and means.

 

The ability to change cartridges easily is not the reason most manufacturer's went away from the removable headshell. The reason is that the signal loss at the headshell junction to the arm was clearly heard by a'philes as their systems gained in resolution.
Add to that the increase in rigidity of the fixed headshell vs. the removable headshell and the result is that the removable headshell design became a thing of the past...
SME themselves were one of the first manufacturer's to go this route. ( and for VERY good reason, IMHO).

I've never seen nor heard 'proof' of this...?
Audiophiles can easily 'convince' themselves of 'imagined' differences...as we all know too well

The maximum possible resistance of a single gold-plated connector is 0.01-ohm whereas the resistance of 4-feet of 33-gauge wire is 1.0436-ohms. The resistance of 1-foot of 33-gauge wire plus 3-feet of heavier 26-gauge interconnect wire and 6 gold plated connectors is 0.2609 + 0.12243 + 6 x 0.01 = 0.44333-ohms. Signal loss is proportional to resistance; therefore, the continuous 33-gauge wire has over twice the signal loss as the combination of wire with 6 connectors.

Signal loss is proportional to resistance only. In other words, the small voltage and current of a phono cartridge signal has no greater impact to the signal loss as would a much larger voltage and current. This is why having some formal education in electrical theory helps. It might seem like the minuscule voltage and current from a phono cartridge will be more susceptible to signal loss than higher line level voltages and currents, but that's not the case. Signal loss is proportional to resistance, only.

Best regards,
John Elison

In other words....the 'signal loss' with your continuous, unbroken 4 feet of tonearm cable to phono-stage, is at least twice that of a tonearm with interchangeable headshell.

Some education in Structural Engineering would also be helpful before making assumptions on 'rigidity'.
The 'bayonet and locking collar' arrangement standardised for removable headshells, creates what is called a Moment Connection in Structural Engineering.
This means that all Bending Stresses, Shear Stresses and Deflections at the joint are transferred without loss.
In fact....this form of structural coupling is more rigid than many 'fixed' headshells....especially those connecting metal shells to wood tonearm bodies.
Most fixed headshells are secured by 1 or 2 screws which have little ability in creating a Moment Connection.

 

Nothing emotional Francisco, I just explained why Chris was right calling it BS. You’re diverting the subject, changing headshell types was not the subject of his posts, this is a complete separate conversation involving many variables.



Basically connections never went away, and there are still highend manufacturers with great multilinkage designs!



You’re speculating seebeck effect is thermoelectric, do you hear any noise with the 3012 even from one’s that have been in use for decades? Any from other brands with removable headshell or wand?



What does that have to do with mechanical linkages and how they’re used? Are you saying that conductors do not have clear audible sonic signatures? Which part of the post discussed personal preference or debate of sonic qualities?



Dimissing BS and trolling isn’t shouting, what were the debating points in Davey’s post as presented. I’m not shouting but you’re taking the thread OT, do you want to debate that too ?


Always a pleasure, but weren’t some of the same people dismissing the 927 based on it’s rumble figures ?

david

Thanks, David, a lot of words, but no one rebates my main arguments, just the formal aspect.

BTW, Louis Dutch measured my 927 and found it was 20 dB better than specification - enough for vinyl playback.

 

I've never seen nor heard 'proof' of this...?
Audiophiles can easily 'convince' themselves of 'imagined' differences...as we all know too well


In other words....the 'signal loss' with your continuous, unbroken 4 feet of tonearm cable to phono-stage, is at least twice that of a tonearm with interchangeable headshell.

Some education in Structural Engineering would also be helpful before making assumptions on 'rigidity'.
The 'bayonet and locking collar' arrangement standardised for removable headshells, creates what is called a Moment Connection in Structural Engineering.
This means that all Bending Stresses, Shear Stresses and Deflections at the joint are transferred without loss.
In fact....this form of structural coupling is more rigid than many 'fixed' headshells....especially those connecting metal shells to wood tonearm bodies.
Most fixed headshells are secured by 1 or 2 screws which have little ability in creating a Moment Connection.

+1.
Another great post from Henry.

 

I've never seen nor heard 'proof' of this...?
Audiophiles can easily 'convince' themselves of 'imagined' differences...as we all know too well


In other words....the 'signal loss' with your continuous, unbroken 4 feet of tonearm cable to phono-stage, is at least twice that of a tonearm with interchangeable headshell.

Some education in Structural Engineering would also be helpful before making assumptions on 'rigidity'.
The 'bayonet and locking collar' arrangement standardised for removable headshells, creates what is called a Moment Connection in Structural Engineering.
This means that all Bending Stresses, Shear Stresses and Deflections at the joint are transferred without loss.
In fact....this form of structural coupling is more rigid than many 'fixed' headshells....especially those connecting metal shells to wood tonearm bodies.
Most fixed headshells are secured by 1 or 2 screws which have little ability in creating a Moment Connection.

So I understand you completely, you are stating that there is no difference between a removable headshell and a one piece arm/headshell in regards to a) signal loss and b) rigidity. None. Is that correct?

This:

VS...This:

 

So I understand you completely, you are stating that there is no difference between a removable headshell and a one piece arm/headshell in regards to a) signal loss and b) rigidity. None. Is that correct?

This: View attachment 43050

VS...This: View attachment 43051

No..no...no....
There are huge differences in regards to
a)Signal Loss between the straight-run of phono wire with the fixed headshell and the detachable headshell with Din or RCA connectors.
Perhaps you didn't fully read the quote I attached to my previous Post....but you are experiencing probably three times the signal loss with your fixed headshell over the detachable one. Perhaps that accounts for the differences people claim to hear...?

b)Rigidity Welding is one way of achieving a Moment Connection and that is the example of a welded headshell affixed to a metal tube tonearm that you have attached.
There are no degrees of Moment Connections..... you either have one or you don't

But with the fixed headshell you get the triple wammy.....
Not only do you lose three times the phono signal....but you end up with possibly the worst headshell material choice for 90% of cartridges.....
Metal headshells are my material of choice for only about two of my 50 cartridges...with wood, carbon fibre, plastic etc sounding infinitely better

 

I can't wait for the explanation of how a detachable headshell doesn't have wire between it and the phono preamp, so it loses less signal.

 

I can't wait for the explanation of how a detachable headshell doesn't have wire between it and the phono preamp, so it loses less signal.

Perhaps you also should read again the quote I attached from John Elison and try to understand it......?

 

Honestly, when I listen to music using different arms carts, distinguishing two different excellent arms are already difficult enough. And when I distinguished that I couldn’t tell if the differences come from head shell connection, types of screws or washers. These knit picking variables could possible make teeny tiny differences if they make any differences at all. The overall sonic satisfaction I get from this SME just makes me disregard all these technically justifiable variables. I don’t know how to express my honest opinion in such a way it would not sound like a hype or brainwashed by ddk. But this SME is really the best price performance and one of the best arm at any price point imo.

Kind regards,
Tang

Interesting that you say “one” of the best tonearms and not “the”. What other tonearms do you like just as much as the 3012r and why?

 

John Elison is trying to present this issue in an excessively naive way, as if pure resistance is all that matters. And he is right, from an objectivist POV

Yet resistance affects only S/N ratio to a very small degree and pales into comparison with the non-linearities of multiple contact junctions and the introduction of various metals. Not to mention the additional solder joints.

 

You can run any sized wire you want to the cartridge, and can change the wire from TT to phono pre. John Elison does not state what you state. He merely was showing that resistance means signal loss. This has more to do with how gain the phonostage needs. He didn't cover skin affect and wire size however...

 

Have any of you tried your arms (SME or others) on both suspended and non suspended decks and found that arm to work better on one and not the other?

 

Interesting that you say “one” of the best tonearms and not “the”. What other tonearms do you like just as much as the 3012r and why?

I said one of the best because I haven’t heard them all. Although I am so impressed by this SME, it takes more than a few weeks to really understand a gear. Just like AtlasSL. What most people say about it is because they haven’t lived with one. You have to live with it a while to be definite even to yourself. Ddk has a very long term experience with this arm. I don’t, therefore, one of the bests.

Kind regards,
Tang

 

Have any of you tried your arms (SME or others) on both suspended and non suspended decks and found that arm to work better on one and not the other?

I had both Axiom and SAT on AF1P and AS2000. If you considered AF1P air suspended, then there is no differences.

Kind regards,
Tang