Sme 3012 R

I know this old arm is good but I don’t know why David,Rockitman,Tang,Ron,Mike
Use or will use having top tonearm like Sat,EliteAxiom,Black Beauty,Durand

Why 3012 is so special?
I never had and I don’t understand
Only to know for my curiosity
Regards
Gian

 

The ability to change cartridges easily is not the reason most manufacturer's went away from the removable headshell. The reason is that the signal loss at the headshell junction to the arm was clearly heard by a'philes as their systems gained in resolution.
Add to that the increase in rigidity of the fixed headshell vs. the removable headshell and the result is that the removable headshell design became a thing of the past...
SME themselves were one of the first manufacturer's to go this route. ( and for VERY good reason, IMHO).

As far as I could see we can have a fixed SME 3012R - SME has an headshell with a coupler that replaces the connector, similar to this one used in the SME 3009 series II. We just take the connector and wires out of the arm wand and replace with the integral headshell, also replacing the wires with longer ones. Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately, it would take a lot of time and I would loose the convenience of easy change) I only once saw one for the "R"models in eBay.uk and lost the auction! The shown headshell is not compatible with the "R" version.

 

Audiophiles by definition are neurotic.

No, I am an audiophile because I do not want to become a neurotic! Audiophilia strengths mind resilience - I am more affected by car breakdown or damage than by a faulty amplifier or a broken stylus!

 

You should win that one easily - as far as I have read, the SME 3012R matches perfectly your system and turntable - as well as it matches my EMT!

The real question for Peter is how the SME 3012R would play in his system - that in some sense is the opposite of yours. Only experience will give a proper answer.

The question is not so much which arm is better in David’s system. Perhaps not even in my system as I have an integrated solution. The real question for me is how these two arms compare in a general sense over a variety of systems and tastes. A full range and transparent system. We all know what David thinks. How would they compare in say Christian’s system or on an AF1 or Kronos using an Atlas or Opus. That for me is the question.

The attributes and qualities of these arms aren’t system dependent they are what they are irrespective and you’ll easily hear the differences on systems of average resolution as long as the setup is up to scratch and the system isn’t chocking and vomiting on tweaks! Same goes for high resolution systems.

david

 

The ability to change cartridges easily is not the reason most manufacturer's went away from the removable headshell. The reason is that the signal loss at the headshell junction to the arm was clearly heard by a'philes as their systems gained in resolution.
Add to that the increase in rigidity of the fixed headshell vs. the removable headshell and the result is that the removable headshell design became a thing of the past...
SME themselves were one of the first manufacturer's to go this route. ( and for VERY good reason, IMHO).

absolute marketing BS !

 

absolute marketing BS !

If you say so.

 

As far as I could see we can have a fixed SME 3012R - SME has an headshell with a coupler that replaces the connector, similar to this one used in the SME 3009 series II. We just take the connector and wires out of the arm wand and replace with the integral headshell, also replacing the wires with longer ones. Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately, it would take a lot of time and I would loose the convenience of easy change) I only once saw one for the "R"models in eBay.uk and lost the auction! The shown headshell is not compatible with the "R" version.

Uhhhh, do I not see a junction between the headshell and the arm in your photo????

 

If you say so.

Davey,
What explains all of the audiophiles on this site with world class systems, cartridges and competitive arms costing as much as $30K reporting that the SME 3012R is the best arm in the system? Could they all be wrong?

No.

 

absolute marketing BS !

Why disagreement must be accompanied by such unfair words? I have read from knowledgeable technical people presenting both perspectives and I must say that both have very valid reasons.

 

Davey,
What explains all of the audiophiles on this site with world class systems, cartridges and competitive arms costing as much as $30K reporting that the SME 3012R is the best arm in the system? Could they all be wrong?

No.

Ok, if you insist.

 

Why disagreement must be accompanied by such unfair words? I have read from knowledgeable technical people presenting both perspectives and I must say that both have very valid reasons.

sure...one unbroken (continuous) wire from cart through arm sounds good in theory...does it make a difference (audibly) in practice ? No, Not in my experience.

 

Ok, if you insist.

No Davey, they insist. I guess you read this thread with your eyes wide shut.

 

sure...one unbroken (continuous) wire from cart through arm sounds good in theory...does it make a difference (audibly) in practice ? No, Not in my experience.

There was lot more in Dave post - I was mainly referring to the mechanical aspects.

But if you accept, as agreed by most people here, that silver wiring will degrade sound quality you must be prepared to accept that the two extra connections, including several junctions of different metals and types of wire will also affect it! Open mind works both ways ...

 

There was lot more in Dave post - I was mainly referring to the mechanical aspects.

But if you accept, as agreed by most people here, that silver wiring will degrade sound quality you must be prepared to accept that the two extra connections, including several junctions of different metals and types of wire will also affect it! Open mind works both ways ...

I never agreed that silver wiring degrades sound quality. I don't think Siltech Triple Crown which is pure mono crystal silver degrades sound quality. It's not the material...it's the implementation/execution, imho.

 

No Davey, they insist. I guess you read this thread with your eyes wide shut.

I read this thread just fine, thank you. I also noticed that you happen to own one of the 3012R’s.
I owned one too, moved on years ago.

 

sure...one unbroken (continuous) wire from cart through arm sounds good in theory...does it make a difference (audibly) in practice ? No, Not in my experience.

Same here. I guess only when they have a few arms in their system, then they will understand that there is no performance disadvantages having used phono cables and also joint with replaceable head shell of 3012R. My Axiom and SAT with fixed headshell and wire run straight to phono don’t make any sonic advantages to the SME. I am a gear head and materialistic. Using the 3012R for me is just like wearing a Zegna suit with timberland shoes. But, Soundwise, no disadvantages period.

Kind regards,
Tang

 

There was lot more in Dave post - I was mainly referring to the mechanical aspects.

But if you accept, as agreed by most people here, that silver wiring will degrade sound quality you must be prepared to accept that the two extra connections, including several junctions of different metals and types of wire will also affect it! Open mind works both ways ...

The post was Total BS and regurgitated and uniformed trolling!

You’re a professor why would a connection tightening down on the headshell make the it less rigid? Isn’t that how they build bridges? If anything by locking and tightening down one can get an extremely rigid structure, but is that how you get good sound? Also mentioned that SME and other manufacturers moved away from removable headshells, incorrect! SME never did stop they continue making tonesarms with removable headshells as we write as do many other high end tonearm makers, Ortofon, EMT, Ikeda, SAEC etc., many others like Graham offer removable wands same concept. So when and which manufacturers abandoned this concept?

I have a 3009 with non removable headshell, while there’s a slight difference in character there’s no sonic gain vs the standard 3009-R. Reality is that the 3012-R is held back by the reproduction chain than any connection, people continue to discover and be amazed by it’s sound quality even more as we go up the resolution chain.

Silver, gold, copper, alloys of various mixes all have very different and known sonic signatures that’s why designers pick one over the other, how does this relate to Davey’s post?

Open mind to what exactly Francisco, BS?

david

 

The ability to change cartridges easily is not the reason most manufacturer's went away from the removable headshell. The reason is that the signal loss at the headshell junction to the arm was clearly heard by a'philes as their systems gained in resolution.
Add to that the increase in rigidity of the fixed headshell vs. the removable headshell and the result is that the removable headshell design became a thing of the past...
SME themselves were one of the first manufacturer's to go this route. ( and for VERY good reason, IMHO).

A thing of the past? Exactly which manufacturers with competent designs went away from removable headshells, SME certainly never did? Quite a few even offer designs with removable wands today.

Audiophiles clearly heard signal loss at the headshell junction, how?

How do you know that a fixed headshell is more rigid than the removable SME type collar tightening down on the headshell collar or one type has a sonic advantage over the other. Google structural rigidity and see how complex the subject is, you’re an expert now?

Why troll with this nonsense?

david

 

I read this thread just fine, thank you. I also noticed that you happen to own one of the 3012R’s.
I owned one too, moved on years ago.

Have you ever posted your system? I'd love to see it so I have a better frame of reference regarding your opinions.

 

A thing of the past? Exactly which manufacturers with competent designs went away from removable headshells, SME certainly never did? Quite a few even offer designs with removable wands today.

Audiophiles clearly heard signal loss at the headshell junction, how?

How do you know that a fixed headshell is more rigid than the removable SME type collar tightening down on the headshell collar or one type has a sonic advantage over the other. Google structural rigidity and see how complex the subject is, you’re an expert now?

Why troll with this nonsense?

david

He does the same thing with horns.

 

The post was Total BS and regurgitated and uniformed trolling!

You’re a professor why would a connection tightening down on the headshell make the it less rigid? Isn’t that how they build bridges? If anything by locking and tightening down one can get an extremely rigid structure, but is that how you get good sound? Also mentioned that SME and other manufacturers moved away from removable headshells, incorrect! SME never did stop they continue making tonesarms with removable headshells as we write as do many other high end tonearm makers, Ortofon, EMT, Ikeda, SAEC etc., many others like Graham offer removable wands same concept. So when and which manufacturers abandoned this concept?

I have a 3009 with non removable headshell, while there’s a slight difference in character there’s no sonic gain vs the standard 3009-R. Reality is that the 3012-R is held back by the reproduction chain than any connection, people continue to discover and be amazed by it’s sound quality even more as we go up the resolution chain.

Silver, gold, copper, alloys of various mixes all have very different and known sonic signatures that’s why designers pick one over the other, how does this relate to Davey’s post?

Open mind to what exactly Francisco, BS?

david

Unfortunately you are reacting emotionally to Davey post and his poor formulation of the several alternatives of tonearm implementation and its characteristics. Headshell connections have a sound signature - I have single pin and double pin SME headshells and IMHO the double pin sounds better. And yes, it is not a question of being rigid, it is a question of acoustic impedance. Several people here use alternative headshells, I have seen people who prefer using the washer at the connection, something I tried, even thin Teflon, and personally dislike.

When SME developed the SME V they moved to fixed headshell and properly explained why - only later they introduced the removable headshell in this model. Graham also explained why they preferred to have a wand,not a headshell.

And believe it or not, any connection joining two different materials develops noise due to Seeback effect. Weather it subjectively affects sound quality or not is open to debate.

I only presented the "wire metal sound" as an example that science can not explain our beliefs concerning sound signatures, that are too individual and different between our members to be considered as a general belief.

IMHO WBF should be a forum open to debate, not a shouting place. But yes, trolling is a nuisance and annoying.

BTW, as today the weather is too hot to use tubes or class A I am listening to the EMT using my old Quad 606 and 34 preamplfier in the SoundLabs - and I am enjoying it!