Sme 3012 R

I know this old arm is good but I don’t know why David,Rockitman,Tang,Ron,Mike
Use or will use having top tonearm like Sat,EliteAxiom,Black Beauty,Durand

Why 3012 is so special?
I never had and I don’t understand
Only to know for my curiosity
Regards
Gian

 

I said one of the best because I haven’t heard them all. Although I am so impressed by this SME, it takes more than a few weeks to really understand a gear. Just like AtlasSL. What most people say about it is because they haven’t lived with one. You have to live with it a while to be definite even to yourself. Ddk has a very long term experience with this arm. I don’t, therefore, one of the bests.

Kind regards,
Tang

The big moment of truth is going to be when Tang stops buying new turntable and arms and buys music instead. A SAT arm or two might even hit the used market ! And then again In Tangs case he might just keep it all for him self !

 

The big moment of truth is going to be when Tang stops buying new turntable and arms and buys music instead. A SAT arm or two might even hit the used market ! And then again In Tangs case he might just keep it all for him self !

That moment is now Lagonda. It’s time to buy excellent software.

Kind regards,
Tang

 

That moment is now Lagonda. It’s time to buy excellent software.

Kind regards,
Tang

Give it a few month Tang, the AS2000 and her attributes is still the new girl in your stable. The new one is always exiting in the beginning.

 

John Elison is trying to present this issue in an excessively naive way, as if pure resistance is all that matters. And he is right, from an objectivist POV

Yet resistance affects only S/N ratio to a very small degree and pales into comparison with the non-linearities of multiple contact junctions and the introduction of various metals. Not to mention the additional solder joints.

Let's count those dastardly solder joints......

 

Unfair comparison. The ones conducting a microvolt level signal contribute much more.

 

Unfair comparison. The ones conducting a microvolt level signal contribute much more.

Is it just me...or does everyone ignore John Elison's quote on purpose...?

Signal loss is proportional to resistance only. In other words, the small voltage and current of a phono cartridge signal has no greater impact to the signal loss as would a much larger voltage and current. This is why having some formal education in electrical theory helps. It might seem like the minuscule voltage and current from a phono cartridge will be more susceptible to signal loss than higher line level voltages and currents, but that's not the case. Signal loss is proportional to resistance, only.

If you disagree with it....provide your evidence

 

Again: reducing the non-linear effects of contact junctions between dissimilar metals to the thermal noise of pure resistance is perhaps a bit simplistic

By quoting other ultra-orthodox engineering opinions you can easily discard the importance of nearly everything which constitutes today's high end.

 

Again: reducing the non-linear effects of contact junctions between dissimilar metals to the thermal noise of pure resistance is perhaps a bit simplistic

By quoting other ultra-orthodox engineering opinions you can easily discard the importance of nearly everything which constitutes today's high end.

I'm sorry, but this response to me, is simply 'mumbo-jumbo'....
It lacks discernible scientific credibility and avoids any factual content.

I don't mean to offend....but these are the kind of statements that beset and confuse the High End and are symptomatic of why 'snake-oil' salesmen have managed to infiltrate it to the degree they have....

 

I've never seen nor heard 'proof' of this...?
Audiophiles can easily 'convince' themselves of 'imagined' differences...as we all know too well

What is your point?

In other words....the 'signal loss' with your continuous, unbroken 4 feet of tonearm cable to phono-stage, is at least twice that of a tonearm with interchangeable headshell. (...)

If the signal loss is linear its effect will be minimal. The question is that people admit they can "listen" to effects of solder type, wire bonding and plating quality - all this suggests added distortions. BTW, I am talking about sounding different, not better!

Science was never interested in the psycho-acoustics of the nanovolts, it will be of little help in these debates. But if there is a difference, there is a cause ...

 

View attachment 43056

Let's count those dastardly solder joints......

Good point. Most audiophiles will tell you that point-to-point wiring sounds very different from the same circuit assembled in a PCB. Many members of the DIY community (see diyaudio.com) buy vintage quality equipment using point to point and re-solder it, taking out the old solder and replacing it with premium solder. They claim it sounds better after this operation. Should we pretend it is just their imagination?

 

Interesting that you say “one” of the best tonearms and not “the”. (...)

Since long we know that "the best" does not exist in high-end ...

Although we can statistically analyze opinions and consider that the one who gets more votes becomes "the best" - a well known speaker manufacturer based most of its marketing actions in this "best".

Do you remember when we carried polls in WBF and the flamed debates that sometimes followed them?

 

I said one of the best because I haven’t heard them all. Although I am so impressed by this SME, it takes more than a few weeks to really understand a gear. Just like AtlasSL. What most people say about it is because they haven’t lived with one. You have to live with it a while to be definite even to yourself. Ddk has a very long term experience with this arm. I don’t, therefore, one of the bests.

Kind regards,
Tang

I see. This is why I would want to do a long term comparison in my own system and not form a conclusion over a day in someone else’s system. How would you now describe the different sounds of the 3012r and the SAT?

 

Since long we know that "the best" does not exist in high-end ...

Although we can statistically analyze opinions and consider that the one who gets more votes becomes "the best" - a well known speaker manufacturer based most of its marketing actions in this "best".

Do you remember when we carried polls in WBF and the flamed debates that sometimes followed them?

Let me rephrase. Tang, which tonearm do you prefer in your system and why?

All have detachable head shells. You don’t adjust once set up, so they sound different for other reasons. It seems that for those who prefer the 3012r, we have not advanced the art in 30+years. That is a significant position. I wonder what the tonearm designers think.

 

(...) It seems that for those who prefer the 3012r, we have not advanced the art in 30+years. (...)

No Peter, IMHO it means that our way of listening to stereo reproduction is subjective and a small group of people who are particularly enthusiasts and now share similar preferences are very happy with its performance with the help of an expert.

IMHO the insistence in dissecting or ranking components does not help to understand this thread. Or enjoy music! We can not separate a tonearm in its parts, it must be understood as an whole. Surely, YMMV!

 

You can run any sized wire you want to the cartridge, and can change the wire from TT to phono pre. John Elison does not state what you state. He merely was showing that resistance means signal loss. This has more to do with how gain the phonostage needs. He didn't cover skin affect and wire size however...

+1

 

All have detachable head shells. You don’t adjust once set up, so they sound different for other reasons. It seems that for those who prefer the 3012r, we have not advanced the art in 30+years. That is a significant position. I wonder what the tonearm designers think.

Well IF you were to ask SME, I'm pretty sure that they would tell you that their current arms are a significant advance over their older models...and IMO with very good reason. Unfortunately, there are people who believe that cannot be true...and therefore it is all marketing 'BS' on SME's behalf

 

Is it just me...or does everyone ignore John Elison's quote on purpose...?

If you disagree with it....provide your evidence

I believe you're confusing ignoring Elison's quote and your interpretation. IMO if you can hear much difference either the headshell is too heavy, or something is nearly faulty. Resistance, again, main need more gain but 1ohm isn't enough to really be audible. Resistance isn't the enemy, it merely needs to be accounted for when looking at a complete circuit.

Again: reducing the non-linear effects of contact junctions between dissimilar metals to the thermal noise of pure resistance is perhaps a bit simplistic

By quoting other ultra-orthodox engineering opinions you can easily discard the importance of nearly everything which constitutes today's high end.

First you realize all the studio equipment has a gazillion solder joints in it right? Secondly how can you measure all those non-linearities? All the machines that measure down to insanely low levels, in multiple fields, use solder.

To you metals may appear dissimilar, but electrically they are pretty much the same. Solder is not always the contact to contact formation either, as ideally it simply holds things in place. Solder isn't dissimilar enough to heat the joints enough to matter. If it was that easy to disturb solder you wouldn't see surge protection devices rated for thousands of volts that are soldered together.

Pure resistance doesn't automatically create notable thermal noise, either. If that were true audio gear would sound horrific. There are resistors everywhere. Generally speaking the resistance has zero generated noise in audio recording and playback. But it can affect other things. Truthfully it can be mostly ignored. The odds that resistance can improve sound is higher than it harming sound, for any given part of a system (within limits of power capability). (most resistor noise won't be stimulated under most audio gear application, but it can matter in other equipment)

I'm sorry, but this response to me, is simply 'mumbo-jumbo'....
It lacks discernible scientific credibility and avoids any factual content.

I don't mean to offend....but these are the kind of statements that beset and confuse the High End and are symptomatic of why 'snake-oil' salesmen have managed to infiltrate it to the degree they have....

I generally accept that many things sound different. Why? Well as shown with measurements it's rarely because something is "better" but rather just different and or slightly unstable (etc). It's a subjectionist hobby, so however you get there, that's fine... but it can be irritating to listen to BS claims when they could admit the truth.

Good point. Most audiophiles will tell you that point-to-point wiring sounds very different from the same circuit assembled in a PCB. Many members of the DIY community (see diyaudio.com) buy vintage quality equipment using point to point and re-solder it, taking out the old solder and replacing it with premium solder. They claim it sounds better after this operation. Should we pretend it is just their imagination?

Old gear wasn't always soldered together so well. If they had the slightest bit of lack-luster soldering (common in the past, perhaps because of the solder itself) then in high voltage gear (vintage tubes) the joint will degrade. It's not a surprise that making a bad joint into a good one can get positive results.

Point to point sounds different for reasons outside of the solder itself.

 

Let me rephrase. Tang, which tonearm do you prefer in your system and why?

In my opinion, they both sound great. The Axiom too. I greatly enjoy all of them. Which one I prefer? Of course, the SME. It costed me a fraction of SAT and Axiom. Who would not prefer to pay less if they can get this level of sound. A no-brainer. Preferences are individualistic. Is there really the best arm? Last Saturday, a nice gentleman, another Thai owner of AS2000, came to my room to listen to the SME and SAT on my AS. He brought along very very expensive first press and test pressing of various titles. When he listened to Belafonte he said the AtlasSL on SME sounded better than when played on GFS/SAT. And when we played that Flamingo famous Direct-to-Disc album, he said the GFS/SAT sounded better than the AtlasSL/SME. He seemed pretty impressed with what he was hearing from both. What does that tell you and me about which arm is better? Nothing. Except it is good to see that this way cheaper SME can impress the guy as much as another setup with super expensive arm. I am only writing this only to let you guys know from my experience that exceptional sound can come from much cheaper arm than Axiom and SAT. I can never be absolute to say which is the best. Ddk is absolute. I am not. Anyway that gentleman now decides to put 3012R on his table along with Axiom and Thales as I posted the picture in another thread. One last thing, when you actually get this exceptional sound from your system, you would no longer question why about the gear you are using. Look at Mr.Lavigne. He doesn’t care how those kitten litter boxes make his system sound so exceptional. The removable headshell, the integrated tonearm wire, etc just become forgettable.

Kind regards,
Tang

 

First you realize all the studio equipment has a gazillion solder joints in it right?

It is usually all those nasty opamps and pots in the studios that get quoted in such threads, now there is also that nasty solder too. Lets just buy a pair of profi amps and Yamaha NC10s and be done with the endless system building

There is of course that other view: the recording is a given, it is something upon which we generally have no control and can serve as no excuse for being sloppy with the reproduction chain.



A bit more on topic: never owned a 3012R, but did own the Mk2 several times and once even went to the trouble of rewiring it, a surprisingly futile exercise . I remember an Ittok being much more preferable. So, is the R so incomparably better than the Mk2?

 

Well IF you were to ask SME, I'm pretty sure that they would tell you that their current arms are a significant advance over their older models...and IMO with very good reason. Unfortunately, there are people who believe that cannot be true...and therefore it is all marketing 'BS' on SME's behalf

I did ask them just that and that is what they told me. Well one engineer did. He is an engineer not a marketing guy with BS. In the end it is all subjective so it does not matter. Tango is happy because he saves money and likes the sound. I understand micros point now. I used to know a group of guys who all had Teres tables and Durand arms and ZYX cartridges. They were very happy.