Sme 3012 R

I know this old arm is good but I don’t know why David,Rockitman,Tang,Ron,Mike
Use or will use having top tonearm like Sat,EliteAxiom,Black Beauty,Durand

Why 3012 is so special?
I never had and I don’t understand
Only to know for my curiosity
Regards
Gian

 

My experience with cords, cables and wires is that they sound and behave the same in any system irrespective of brands, topology, etc. wires don't suddenly change character because of where one sticks them. Personal preference is a different thing, for me any type of silver is completely out no matter where in the chain it appears even if it's just the cartridge leads the same is true for all UPOCC wires simply too colored, I just can't stand any of those conductors or cables made from them. Again, personal preference excludes majority of audiophile wires I have heard and it has nothing to do with Lamm.

david

Right up among the list of experiences I would most venture to seek to learn from would be with you and your system David. Many things you say resonate and I figure I’d appreciate your preference for how things work together as well. I’d even strangely imagined a future world of late (perhaps more future than I might even make it to) I’d also have a modest vintage analogue setup here as well and discussed this more often with mates more recently. Your approach has really been very influential in that.

In the past I’ve taken classes to walk through a traditional Taoist scholar garden to look at a way of realising experience by pulling through where you have been and trusting in the anticipation of where you are drawn to go and both music and audio these days for me are much more like that now.

The fairly safe constraints of a scholar’s means keep me on a nicely weighted and timed track by the way of a modest natural gravity in circumstance. But it’s always cool then how still the flow path in both music and audio are convergent and divergent at various points… and still it’s safely (and sanely) a very great möbius and I always feel much better for all our varied connections along the way in it.

Graham

 

If I had a Lamm amp or pre based on everyone’s experience here I’d definitely lean to simpler copper signal cables. David’s, Peter’s and Tang’s experience seem to continuously point towards that.

Mythologies! Ha!

I certainly can confirm that Lamm electronics reveal their character through simple copper cabling. I do have silver kondo in my 4Point tonearm which I switched to from their Crystal Cable silver-gold default. and don't know what a switch to copper there could mean - the only copper Franc offers (I think) is Cardas Clear.

It was a fascinating lesson @ddk taught - to learn how other cables - what @PeterA called 'fancy audiophile cables' can obscure that Lamm character after years of hearing what I thought were improvements. I want to hear those nice Lammies - I don't want to hear wire messing with their sound.

Otherwise I've always had copper - but copper alone assures nothing as cable configuration or build is also important. Most audiophile cables need to set themselves apart from others, make some claim to do some thing to alter ("improve") the way a component or system sounds. Simple, imo, is better, and way less expensive.

 

My experience with cords, cables and wires is that they sound and behave the same in any system irrespective of brands, topology, etc. wires don't suddenly change character because of where one sticks them. Personal preference is a different thing, for me any type of silver is completely out no matter where in the chain it appears even if it's just the cartridge leads the same is true for all UPOCC wires simply too colored, I just can't stand any of those conductors or cables made from them. Again, personal preference excludes majority of audiophile wires I have heard and it has nothing to do with Lamm.

david

This was confirmed to me when some friends and I took the same cables around to test in our respective systems. The character of the cables and power cords, first heard and identified by doing comparisons in one system, were then heard in the other systems, regardless of system, gear, typology, or set up. In some cases, the cable or power cord character was so evident, it completely changed the overall character of the system, rather than just "balance" or complement the sound of the system. It was easily heard and for me, it could become a distraction with a spotlight shouting, "look at me".

I prefer cables that simply seem to allow one to hear the components. It is often hard to know what is what, but when one hears more music and less spotlighting, one gets a sense. My preferred cables and cords, based on my somewhat limited comparisons, tend to be simpler, more practical designs with good connections. And a phono cable should be flexible and not so heavy as to affect the balance of a suspended turntable design requiring its own support structure. The fascinating thing is that among those of us who did these comparisons, opinions varied considerably. As David writes, personal preference is a different thing.

 

... after years of hearing what I thought were improvements. I want to hear those nice Lammies - I don't want to hear wire messing with their sound.

This should be a sticky note somewhere ;

 

My experience with cords, cables and wires is that they sound and behave the same in any system irrespective of brands, topology, etc. wires don't suddenly change character because of where one sticks them. Personal preference is a different thing, for me any type of silver is completely out no matter where in the chain it appears even if it's just the cartridge leads the same is true for all UPOCC wires simply too colored, I just can't stand any of those conductors or cables made from them. Again, personal preference excludes majority of audiophile wires I have heard and it has nothing to do with Lamm.

david

Valdimir Lamm strongly adverts against using silver wire with Lamm's. It seems everyone can easily get an opinion on what not to use with Lamm's - but it would be great to have a list of regular currently available in the market cables that have something to do with Lamm. Valdimir Lamm has presented his electronics with several brands at shows, but the more often used, Tchernov cables, are almost unknown in the western countries.

There are so many types of copper cables sounding so different that just excluding a few using in silver is of little help.

 

3

Valdimir Lamm strongly adverts against using silver wire with Lamm's. It seems everyone can easily get an opinion on what not to use with Lamm's - but it would be great to have a list of regular currently available in the market cables that have something to do with Lamm. Valdimir Lamm has presented his electronics with several brands at shows, but the more often used, Tchernov cables, are almost unknown in the western countries.

There are so many types of copper cables sounding so different that just excluding a few using in silver is of little help.

Of course which cables matter and a simple copper vs silver is moot because both can be equally bad just that IME and my personal preference I simply never liked anything made from silver conductors I've heard vs finding and liking a number of simple copper products.

As far as shows go there never was a selection of wire vendors basically whoever paid could play so don't come to any conclusions based on who we/Lamm showed with and that was true for any other ancillaries like racks, cartridges, tts, and digital front ends. The only selection was with speakers for obvious reasons.

david

 

Of course which cables matter and a simple copper vs silver is moot because both can be equally bad just that IME and my personal preference I simply never liked anything made from silver conductors I've heard vs finding and liking a number of simple copper products.

Why not listing those you like and are currently and commonly available in the audiophile/professional market?

As far as shows go there never was a selection of wire vendors basically whoever paid could play so don't come to any conclusions based on who we/Lamm showed with and that was true for any other ancillaries like racks, cartridges, tts, and digital front ends. The only selection was with speakers for obvious reasons.

david

I understand it, but we see Vladimir returning several times to the Tchernov cables along the years, that I suppose were not paying to be exhibited - they do not look a powerful owner brand! What is your opinion on them?

 

Why not listing those you like and are currently and commonly available in the audiophile/professional market?



I understand it, but we see Vladimir returning several times to the Tchernov cables along the years, that I suppose were not paying to be exhibited - they do not look a powerful owner brand! What is your opinion on them?

Most of the cables David likes, where made when Marilyn Monroe was just a young girl !

 

Fransisco, perhaps you should start a new thread about cables for Lamm gear. This thread is about a tonearm.

 

Hi Ron. I know it's your duty (actually, I really, really like it...and I don't use 'really, really' very much) to moderate (read: corral) opinions here, and I know that wire has little to do with arms, but, if you will, let the reel reel out a bit more.

I wasn't quite there on Fulton Gold - knew about it, didn't bite - but I was pretty much in on the ensuing milieu thereafter. Some called it a war...

I vaguely remember that Positive Feedback (don't recall the reviewer) did a review of the first Essence PCs. There wasn't much else out there at the time. I was 28 and brash and newly hired at TAS and, so, grabbed the tiger by the tail. Reviewed the Essence to a wall of angry sounds...because if you said, back then, that a wire, a mere wire, could do anything at all...well, that was heresy.

But heresy against what?

The angry, recoiling wind, it came from here:

The scientific materialists seem attached to the concept that a tool (read: technology) has to necessarily have moving parts, or multiple parts, to be techno-logic; as if, parts complexity inherently endows some quality-in-the-subjective-hearing I'm not aware of. They say: a preamp - an arrangement of energy into matter, constructed by us - is somehow inherently, even without empiric observation, superior to a construction of metter into energy that is wire, with shielding, with connectors, all rearranged matter, etc.

Is that so? I know a bit about Cartesian method, but I didn't see anything about that along the philosophic way...

To me, a wire is a preamp is a speaker is the rock that Homo hablis just sharded and used as a weapon-tool in a potential future, a creative vision. Its all rearranged matter/energy to me. I know, it sounds horribly abstract, but its really the most simple way to see it. Wire may not have lots of parts, like a preamp, but it is still a human construct of matter...to carry another type of energy transference within it.

So, silver or copper?

I've said my peace in a prior post, and disclaimed limited recent experience, but I stand by the characterization, its application in a system. That said, I do see the attraction of silver; it's openness. I read somewhere here that someone did copper ICs with silver spkr wire, and I see what they are doing. I do much the same; I use harmonically complex copper ICs mated with open-sounding copper spkr wire. Kondo copper spkr wire is pretty predestrian to some, but it is quite open for copper. I have also used Omega Mikro Planar IIs in the past, same approach

So, dark and light, light and dark.

Putting a stereo system together is an art. I think that is what, in part, attracts us to it, and here. In service of the Music, of course....

This, of course, is what you get when you won't give me a photo of the SME copper tonearm wire I want!

 

David, I think someone just called you a girl!

I sense the nuclear silos in Utah are opening...

Just kiddin' around.

 

Most of the cables David likes, where made when Marilyn Monroe was just a young girl !

You’re giving away all my secrets !

david

 

My favorite Monroe movie is Gentlemen prefer horns

 

David, I think someone just called you a girl!

I sense the nuclear silos in Utah are opening...

Just kiddin' around.

A beautiful one, why not!

david

 

Why not listing those you like and are currently and commonly available in the audiophile/professional market?

I don‘t have a list Francisco I’ll look around if someone needs them and make recommendations, don’t really deal in any wires @Lagonda isn’t far off with his MM comment.

I understand it, but we see Vladimir returning several times to the Tchernov cables along the years, that I suppose were not paying to be exhibited - they do not look a powerful owner brand! What is your opinion on them?

Tchernov is Lamm’s Russian distributor too so there’s other business relationship aside from the shows. Trust me any brand officially listed in a Lamm room paid for the privilege the only exception was probably Wilson. Very few companies exhibit for the joy of it like I used to in early 2000’s, shows are expensive and motivation for almost all ”normal” participants is financial and promotional.

Among the “audiophile“ cables Tchernov has it’s own unique and exceptional qualities which separates it from all others it would be at the top of my list but it’s still a do something “audiophile“ wire which I don’t care for.

david

 

BTW, can someone post a photo of the SME early copper IC I'm looking for? I'm sure its back somewhere in this thread, just can't find it. Also, anything I need to look out for? Thanks, Mark

Asa, I bought two NOS SME 3012R tonearms including phono cables from ddk for my new turntable. I will photograph the early cables for you tomorrow when there is better lighting in my room. These two arms were made specifically for the Japanese market and the cables should be what you are looking for.

 

Thanks, Peter, appreciate that (although I have this sneaking suspicion that you all have snarfed them up long ago....). I could just go Cardas GR on the phono IC...had it long ago. Burnished but nice...I'm like ddk, old wire is fine by me...most of mine is ancient, relatively speaking.

And (drumroll...) I've decided, in typical audiophile fashion, to switch gears and hold off on mounting the Koetsu RSP, save it for when my downstairs room gets finished...besides, I'll have to hire some one to mount it anyway, as my arthritic hands don't go too well with those unthreaded holes...

Instead, for the next year or so, I think I'd like to try out an SPU on the 3012R. I've never had one and always wanted to hear what everyone talks about. My plinth will be here in a month or two so that will give me that time to hunt around. I saw a while back a NIB SPU Century on eBay, but that seems to be long gone (probably to one of you pirates!). Someone else I read with good ears on a thread somewhere liked his Silver Meister MkII...another said, his limited addition Spirit (?) was especially nice. Any opinions on what would sound good mounted to the 3012R would be appreciated (baltic birch ply-based large plinth w/ Garrard 301 hammertone for the rest of it...I know, I'm a walking cliche).

 

Thanks, Peter, appreciate that (although I have this sneaking suspicion that you all have snarfed them up long ago....). I could just go Cardas GR on the phono IC...had it long ago. Burnished but nice...I'm like ddk, old wire is fine by me...most of mine is ancient, relatively speaking.

And (drumroll...) I've decided, in typical audiophile fashion, to switch gears and hold off on mounting the Koetsu RSP, save it for when my downstairs room gets finished...besides, I'll have to hire some one to mount it anyway, as my arthritic hands don't go too well with those unthreaded holes...

Instead, for the next year or so, I think I'd like to try out an SPU on the 3012R. I've never had one and always wanted to hear what everyone talks about. My plinth will be here in a month or two so that will give me that time to hunt around. I saw a while back a NIB SPU Century on eBay, but that seems to be long gone (probably to one of you pirates!). Someone else I read with good ears on a thread somewhere liked his Silver Meister MkII...another said, his limited addition Spirit (?) was especially nice. Any opinions on what would sound good mounted to the 3012R would be appreciated (baltic birch ply-based large plinth w/ Garrard 301 hammertone for the rest of it...I know, I'm a walking cliche).

I have a very early 3012R with serial # 861 and this is the cable that came with it.

 

Thanks again, Peter!

 

Asa, I bought two NOS SME 3012R tonearms including phono cables from ddk for my new turntable. I will photograph the early cables for you tomorrow when there is better lighting in my room. These two arms were made specifically for the Japanese market and the cables should be what you are looking for.

Here you go Asa. These are photos of both ends of the NOS SME 3012R RCA phono cables that came with my arms. They appear to be the same as the one posted by djsina2.