Some days, I want to throw out my stereo

[Al M.]

My hifi sounds better than live.. I go to live to watch more than listen..

Yes, a great stereo sounds better than PA systems. A comparison with unamplified live music (see the OP) is a completely different story.

 

[still-one]

Marty
Thanks for a wonderful write-up of your recent experience. As you note hearing un-miked voices is a rarity these days. I remember flying to Dallas in 2002 to hear Pavarotti in concert. Although it was an entertaining event I was a bit disappointed having to hear Pavarottii all mike'd-up.

I enjoy listening to my system but it does not compare to attending a live music event. This past Sunday we saw Mark Knopfler in concert. Even though we could barely make out the words to many of the songs hearing "Sultans of Swing" with 1700 others is something one cannot experience in our home.

 

[NorthStar]

WoW, what a lovely day! Today I came here and what did I read///\\\Marty's awesome experience @ the theater...simply unparallelled and subliminal.

Anytime sir; I love to read stuff like that right here @ WBF.
And with few pictures of the venue (hall) to accompanied the majesty and eloquence of all those words.
I am comfortably numb.

 

[Fiddle Faddle]

I remember sitting about 15 feet from Itzhak Perlman and Samuel Sanders at Severance Hall, where I could literally put my feet on the stage when they played a duo recital. Even with small scale, the dynamic swoops came with such clarity!

For me it doesn't even take a professional (or even a good amateur) musician to make the shortfalls of reproduced sound abundantly obvious. All it takes is a single acoustic guitarist busker on the other side of the street. And even then, with all the noisy people and cars driving by, the "fidelity" is far beyond anything I have ever heard on ANY sound system at ANY price. Mind you, in all fairness I think most of the "problem" these days occurs by the time the original feed finds it's way from the recording microphones into the mixing console. Otherwise, I actually think high calibre sound systems can actually be god enough to almost get us there. But a good 20% of what makes a live performance is gone before it even hits the original recording media at the recording session. So we don't really have a hope no matter how much we spend or what we have.

 

[R Johnson]

Marty, Thanks for an excellent post!

Very interesting notes on the sound levels, and different seating areas.

I've been attending Lyric Opera of Chicago and the Chicago Symphony regularly (8+ and 30+ performances a year) for over 40 years. I was fortunate to hear Pavarotti, Sutherland, Nilsson, Vickers etc. live and un-amplified. Highlight: Birgit Nilsson in a concert version of "Salome" with Georg Solti and the CSO. I wish I'd had a sound level meter when Solti and the CSO opened the 5th door in Bluebeard's Castle!

Many years ago I decided that a "reasonable facsimile" was all I needed at home. Opera on Blu-ray disc and the PBS showing of the Met's "Live in HD" are quite satisfying, especially with front projection video.

 

[ack]

I agree with marty beautiful pics by the way , although a stereo can do things the real event cant , it aint the same expirience both can be satisfying imo , the last time i wanted to through out my stereo it got quite expensive on the speakerpart

kraan by andromeda61, on Flickr

What is this thing... it looks like the next Magico super-speaker set we've been hearing about.

 

[bonzo75]

My hifi sounds better than live.. I go to live to watch more than listen..

You must be listening to amplified music, like rock, not classical

 

[dallasjustice]

Incredible post! Large scale orchestra, opera and choral music and especially organ concerts are some of my most humbling moments. You are so right that there's no way to reproduce that in any home environment, especially bass drum and large organ. But live music helps me to reconnect and rediscover the art form I most love. That's what it's about and that's the way to think about listening at home. I think about my home listening as a way to offer fleeting moments to recall the way I feel listening at the Meyerson.

You are so right about sitting in different places depending on the concert. IMO, the really big choral concerts can't be fully experienced in large venues unless I sit further up and back, IMO.

I also think us audiophiles have certain advantages over most concert goers. We can really appreciate and understand how precious and special those moments are listening live. Audiophiles also appreciate that no matter how great the recording and subsequent playback, those live listening experiences are unique to each attendee because they will have heard a moment in time nobody else could have ever experienced.

Michael.

 

[RBFC]

Agreed about seating. The best sound I heard in Severance Hall was from the front row center of the dress circle (forward balcony). I saw Rudolf Serkin play the Emperor Concerto ( Beethoven #5 ) and the clarity of the sound and balance was superb. Von Dohnanyi and the Cleveland Orchestra were in fine form.

I'd heard the orchestra from many locations in that hall, and that was the sweet spot.

Lee

 

[Jeffy]

Marty, I enjoyed reading about your musical experience. I, too have measured the dB's of a full orchestra. A bit of advise is to have your microphone on your i phone calibrated. I open audio tools and go to settings. You then open up microphone setup and hit low range and enter. You need a special device that puts out a set dB like 85 dB's. Cup this device with your hands around your speaker input on your i phone. Adjust the trim level in the program of your phone to match 85dB's. What you will find is that the mic is way off. I had to increase my trim by 10.50. This will result in much higher spl readings. You will now be in the 90's reaching 100. I have gone to live jazz clubs and the drums can give me close to 110 db. Of course this would be less sitting further back. The best JEFF

 

[Jeffy]

I agree we can't reach the sound of a live event especially in the dynamics department. I however enjoy listening to my audio system because of the imaging and layering effect of the music. Live orchestra's do not do this. It's like big mono with no pinpoint imaging. They are totally different events and I really don't compare them.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Its a huge liebherr crane , my collegues at work keep joking i need a crane if i ever want to move the speakers again

What is this thing... it looks like the next Magico super-speaker set we've been hearing about.

 

[DaveyF]

For me it doesn't even take a professional (or even a good amateur) musician to make the shortfalls of reproduced sound abundantly obvious. All it takes is a single acoustic guitarist busker on the other side of the street. And even then, with all the noisy people and cars driving by, the "fidelity" is far beyond anything I have ever heard on ANY sound system at ANY price. Mind you, in all fairness I think most of the "problem" these days occurs by the time the original feed finds it's way from the recording microphones into the mixing console. Otherwise, I actually think high calibre sound systems can actually be god enough to almost get us there. But a good 20% of what makes a live performance is gone before it even hits the original recording media at the recording session. So we don't really have a hope no matter how much we spend or what we have.

An interesting and appropriate post, IMHO. I have actually done the very thing that you are referring to with a good guitar in the room. The sound of the 'live' instrument puts all reproduced guitar sounds to shame. There simply is little comparison. One of the things that seems to shock most a'phile listeners is the incredible 'punch' and power that a good string instrument has in real life. I have never done this test when any listener ever came away without a slight amount of depression in regards to their system. It really does show how far we still have to go. Like Marty said, some days I want to throw out my stereo...do the guitar test, or for that matter any real instrument in the room ( BTW, if you really want to get upset, play a Steinway in your room and then listen to the reproduced, LOL).
Rodney, I strongly recommend that you do NOT try this in your room!!

 

[Rodney Gold]

You must be listening to amplified music, like rock, not classical

Yes, most of my listening is not classical , about 10% is .. we have a symphony orchestra in Cape town.. not that great a venue tho .. my wife is a ballet dancer/teacher/examoiner so I go to a lot of ballets , but the orchestra sits in the pit... Live unamplified here is not wonderful..
Every other musical performance live is amplified.. even when its in a small venue , pa speakers , cheapo mics etc...
Im not really interested in chasing a holy grail of matching "live" , its not possible , so all I ask is my hifi to give me an impression that "I am there" or "they are here"

 

[astrotoy]

Marty, thanks for the great write up. About 20 years ago, one of my good friends who, like me lived in the Bay Area, then in his early '50's was diagnosed with terminal cancer. On his bucket list (yes, before he kicked the bucket) was to attend a season at the MET. He and his wife rented a small flat near Lincoln Center, and flew back and forth for an entire season, attending all the MET operas for that year.

I was lucky enough to hear Joan Sutherland in the mid '60's while in college, when she sang Donna Anna in Don Giovanni with the Boston Opera (under Sarah Caldwell). And then in my first year in grad school at Berkeley, I was given a ticket to the SF Opera for La Boheme in the fall of '67, where Pavarotti and Freni were singing the leads (Pavarotti in his official American debut). Voices and experiences, we don't often get. If you are willing to put in the time to prepare, one, wonderful, incredibly intense week of opera (music dramas in the composer's nomenclature) is attending Wagner's Ring Cycle. I have done it four times.

My wife and I attend about 70 professional classical concerts a year, including around 20 or so in our annual London visit. All of these are unamplified, except for the occasional oddity (John Williams, whom we heard in his farewell concert tour a few years back, uses an amp/speaker right below his guitar). They are a combination of solo, chamber, orchestral, ballet, and opera. I long ago gave up trying to match the sound of live, unamplified, music to my system (or any system). I just get immersed in the emotional feelings from the sound of the music in my system. Maybe it explains why my SET amp/Horn combo is so seductive for me.

At home, the closest we have gotten to live music, is to have professional classical musicians (members of the SF Symphony most recently) play live chamber music in our living room (in that case, the Trout Quintet). If you have a professional orchestra, or even advanced students at a local professional conservatory (doesn't have to be Curtis or Julliard but it helps) and hire a soloist, or duo or trio or even string quartet to play a concert in your home. The cost will probably be less than a mid range pair of interconnects. It can be a real treat. Ed Pong does that with some extraordinarily talented young musicians and tapes them. His UltraAnalogue R2R tapes are very special.

Larry

 

[bonzo75]

Yes, most of my listening is not classical , about 10% is .. we have a symphony orchestra in Cape town.. not that great a venue tho .. my wife is a ballet dancer/teacher/examoiner so I go to a lot of ballets , but the orchestra sits in the pit... Live unamplified here is not wonderful..
Every other musical performance live is amplified.. even when its in a small venue , pa speakers , cheapo mics etc...
Im not really interested in chasing a holy grail of matching "live" , its not possible , so all I ask is my hifi to give me an impression that "I am there" or "they are here"

It's not about matching to live. In the audiophile hobby, it is getting the closest to live one can by optimizing one's budget. At least for me. I have heard some systems which just sound fake because nothing that comes out of them has any connection to real music, and one, at that same budget, can get a much better system with better aspects of live (still nowhere close to live).

I too follow a Led Zep cover band, and have been to numerous live shows of ACDC, GnR, Sabbath, Soundgarden, Maiden, Clapton, etc . But talking as an audiophile, if you want to set up a good system, it helps to go some unamplified live classical concerts so that one has a reference point, and that way ears get trained on the right sounds. The thing with amplified music, especially rock, is there are 4 instruments as opposed to 80 on Mahler. From an audiophile perspective, you will see how much more challenging it is to reproduce multiple frequencies across the frequency spectrum with differing voltages simultaneously. Also, amplified music has less of a right or wrong in terms of tonality, while unamplified music has a more of a 'right' tonality that helps you in auditioning.

 

[Rodney Gold]

The problem is that the recording chain of "live" music , makes it impossible to 2nd guess exactly what was heard at the mixing desk etc..apart from other colourations...
The only real way to get close to comparing live with your hifi is to record something in your room , play it back...
I love live stuff , going to a live concert (local jazz band) on sunday...but I tune my hifi to taste rather than use "live" as heard here in CT venues as a benchmark.
I would love to live in a place where there are top notch performers and a top notch spaces for classical.

 

[Fiddle Faddle]

I, too have measured the dB's of a full orchestra.

I will pick up on this point to explain why I still prefer listening to reproduced music even though I know it does not hold a candle sonically speaking to a live performance (even that of a single instrument).

The point: I can control the volume!

The very last time I attended a live performance was around 11 years ago. Shostakovich Symphony No. 4. I did not have an SPL meter with me. But I was in the 12th row and could not hear properly for days afterwards. Everything sounded like I had a cold. When the symphony admin rang me at the end of the year wondering why I did not renew my subscription I told them plain and simple: it was far too loud. And it wasn't just me. I remember the concert goers seated all around me all looking at each other as if to say WTF...

That's what doubled up brass, mass of percussion and 32 violins does to you. I suppose it could have been worse. A late Mahler symphony for example.

So these days all large scale orchestral is only listened to on a hifi system where I can keep the max SPL down to a very comfortable level yet I do not miss any significant detail. A lifetime of semi professional music making and concert attendances have taken it's toll, so the least I can do is do myself a favour and turn it down from hereon in. Yes, there are musician's earplugs but they really effect the actual sound quality quite dramatically, though they are excellent for filtering out day to day noise (for example, when I travel on trains or go shopping in the supermarket with 3-year olds screaming from three feet away.

 

[bonzo75]

Interesting. Can sitting in concert halls in the audience affect hearing adversely?

 

[bonzo75]

The problem is that the recording chain of "live" music , makes it impossible to 2nd guess exactly what was heard at the mixing desk etc..apart from other colourations...
The only real way to get close to comparing live with your hifi is to record something in your room , play it back...
I love live stuff , going to a live concert (local jazz band) on sunday...but I tune my hifi to taste rather than use "live" as heard here in CT venues as a benchmark.
I would love to live in a place where there are top notch performers and a top notch spaces for classical.

Yes I benefit by living in central London where I can catch a performance after work, on the way home. That said, I believe it is ok to color to what has been recorded to make it sound more like live, in case the recording engineer was drunk (all led zep recording engineers were stoned while recording).