Soundlab Audiophile G9-7c: a 30-year odyssey fulfilled

[Young Skywalker]

Sounds wonderful. Yes, Dietrich is now a great support and we will join him in Vienna next year. I will visit him in September after joining Melbourne audio show in August with Hey Now (Same G7-3Cs)
I should mention if you haven’t noted already that larger panels are driven easier than small ones. Let me know if that requires a little explanation.
Hmmm your room reminds me of a good customer in Japan who listens every day to orchestral music. I’ll send a photo in a few minutes when I get thru LAX !

Thanks, Chris.

I am hoping to attend the Vienna Show in 2027.

I might see about a quick trip to Melbourne for the show in August.

I understand why the larger panels represent an easier task for any partnering amplifier. This is why I would purchase the largest that my room (and future budget) could comfortably accomodate. I believe that by placing SLs closer to each side wall (without sonic penalty) would make them somewhat easier to live with visually (approximately 3.5 metres centre to centre and angled inwards for near field listening).

 

[ChrisSoundLab]

Here is that photo ...not many people go quite this far filling a room (!) but you definitely feel like you are in a symphony (or whatever).

 

[ChrisSoundLab]

Thanks, Chris.

I am hoping to attend the Vienna Show in 2027.

I might see about a quick trip to Melbourne for the show in August.

I understand why the larger panels represent an easier task for any partnering amplifier. This is why I would purchase the largest that my room (and future budget) could comfortably accomodate. I believe that by placing SLs closer to each side wall (without sonic penalty) would make them somewhat easier to live with visually (approximately 3.5 metres centre to centre and angled inwards for near field listening).

Let me know if there is anything I can do to support... please note that prices must go up rather significantly from next year, their labor of love that they have pursued for so many years has not been the most carefully cost analyzed efforts and it just won't be possible to continue without some return to reinvest and keep up with cost increases... hope for your (and the world's) understanding. I am trying to do nothing immediate and shocking, but the increases must come. Hope to meet you sometime!

 

[godofwealth]

It’s very hard to find one loudspeaker that can do *everything*, just as it’s impossible to find one restaurant that satisfies all your food desires. My SL G9-7c’s come closer to this ideal than any previous electrostatic I’ve owned, but I do have other loudspeakers in my house that I listen to often. I’m listening now to a pair of Klipsch La Scalas that I bought a few years back before getting my SL’s. I wanted to own a pair of horns and explore the world of SET amplifiers. The La Scalas are an interesting design that were originally made 65 odd years ago when tube amplifiers were all that anyone used. They can go awfully loud with very little power. I’m driving mine now with a Cary SET with a single 300B triode per channel, which produces around 8 watts or so. You can in fact just use a single 45 tube, which yields less than 1.5 watts. So, horns are fascinating in how efficient they are. The La Scalas are 105 dB efficient.

But efficiency is not without its drawbacks. The La Scalas have a certain horn coloration that’s very obvious if you hear the same recording on my SL’s. Their design also means that despite using a 15” bass cone, their bass response is only around 40 Hz or so because the bass cabinet is horn loaded. It’s incredibly efficient but that means a folded dipole that equalizes the impedance mismatch between the heavy woofer cone and the surrounding air. There’s a phase delay in bass notes.

All of these issues are resolved in the SL designs but you can’t drive them with a 300B SET! Loudspeaker designs are full of compromises. My La Scalas are much shorter — they look like furniture cabinets rather than loudspeakers. They are stout being 24” deep. But in the end I don’t think they’re in the same league as the SL’s if you care about sound quality, not just quantity.

 

[Young Skywalker]

Here is that photo ...not many people go quite this far filling a room (!) but you definitely feel like you are in a symphony (or whatever).View attachment 153233

Wow! That is some serious commitment to the audio arts. Definitely eyes closed and lights out listening to visually suspend one’s disbelief that one is listening to a recording and not a live performance. I can manage that since I am one of those weirdos with eyes closed during live symphony concerts in order to focus on just the music.

 

[godofwealth]

I can happily listen to my 9’ tall G9-7c’s sitting as this gentleman is shown a couple of feet from one of the loudspeakers. It’s weird what such a large radiating surface does. It removes any dependence of sound output level from distance. As I walk up to my SL’s even if they’re playing loud, there’s no change in output when you get close. So, you can sit very close if you like. It’s like when I recently listened to the San Francisco Symphony play the Firebird ballet by Stravinsky in a side box just adjacent to the orchestra. You don’t get the same imaging as you would in a center seat, but that hardly matters in a live concert.

 

[Young Skywalker]

I can happily listen to my 9’ tall G9-7c’s sitting as this gentleman is shown a couple of feet from one of the loudspeakers. It’s weird what such a large radiating surface does. It removes any dependence of sound output level from distance. As I walk up to my SL’s even if they’re playing loud, there’s no change in output when you get close. So, you can sit very close if you like. It’s like when I recently listened to the San Francisco Symphony play the Firebird ballet by Stravinsky in a side box just adjacent to the orchestra. You don’t get the same imaging as you would in a center seat, but that hardly matters in a live concert.

Agree completely. I find that whilst at live symphony concerts, I can train my ear on what a single musician or section is doing but otherwise enjoy the rich harmonic structure and tonal colour of the combined orchestra and hall sound and effortless dynamics. I love the way the sound swells like an expending bubble as opposed to the more linear perception of loudness of most audio playback. Those are things I seek in my audio journey. I have most of them already. The question is, can I get even more of them with SL speakers. I look forward to exploring that question.

 

[ChrisSoundLab]

Agree completely. I find that whilst at live symphony concerts, I can train my ear on what a single musician or section is doing but otherwise enjoy the rich harmonic structure and tonal colour of the combined orchestra and hall sound and effortless dynamics. I love the way the sound swells like an expending bubble as opposed to the more linear perception of loudness of most audio playback. Those are things I seek in my audio journey. I have most of them already. The question is, can I get even more of them with SL speakers. I look forward to exploring that question.

I do hope you can try the experience - my confidence level is very high that you will enjoy what you hear - just as Dietrich has confirmed (many times over to me over the last weeks in many emails and conversations). Although I would not rule out that your sound might be superlative reaching the same goals with a different approach, it would be wonderful if more manufacturers could do so - I am all for the music. But as I mentioned to Deitrich and he completely agreed, while he has had such an excellent experience, a lot of that comes from his excellent choice and implementation of everything else in the system because Sound Lab will expose nearly anything which is lacking - others have found the greatness of Sound Lab but only after some hard admissions to weak points, realizing and changing many things in their system. It may not only be components but proper room treatments and placement of speakers - luckily Sound Lab, although looking so large, are actually very easy to move and slide around making every inch or centimeter not a huge chore to adjust. I have had in my several rooms many different arrangements, but I have found having the speakers along the long wall with more separation and/or more space on the sides especially successful for allowing them to disappear and provide a most wonderful encompassing, realistic soundstage and imaging. Not much time difference between Japan and Australia - you are most welcome to come visit me to listen here. (although we will try to do our best in hotel in Melbourne, it is never an easy task!) Or Vienna... (acoustics there are going to be very challenging I've heard)

 

[Young Skywalker]

I do hope you can try the experience - my confidence level is very high that you will enjoy what you hear - just as Dietrich has confirmed (many times over to me over the last weeks in many emails and conversations). Although I would not rule out that your sound might be superlative reaching the same goals with a different approach, it would be wonderful if more manufacturers could do so - I am all for the music. But as I mentioned to Deitrich and he completely agreed, while he has had such an excellent experience, a lot of that comes from his excellent choice and implementation of everything else in the system because Sound Lab will expose nearly anything which is lacking - others have found the greatness of Sound Lab but only after some hard admissions to weak points, realizing and changing many things in their system. It may not only be components but proper room treatments and placement of speakers - luckily Sound Lab, although looking so large, are actually very easy to move and slide around making every inch or centimeter not a huge chore to adjust. I have had in my several rooms many different arrangements, but I have found having the speakers along the long wall with more separation and/or more space on the sides especially successful for allowing them to disappear and provide a most wonderful encompassing, realistic soundstage and imaging. Not much time difference between Japan and Australia - you are most welcome to come visit me to listen here. (although we will try to do our best in hotel in Melbourne, it is never an easy task!) Or Vienna... (acoustics there are going to be very challenging I've heard)

Sounds great, Chris. I have already done a great deal of work with a (gently treated) dedicated listening room that imposes very little of itself on the playback. My selection of source components and their obsessive setup has always been focused on maximising fidelity to the source material rather than pleasing colourations. For this reason, I feel that truly transparent and low distortion loudspeakers that work sympathetically with their environment will fit into my system philosophy quite comfortably.

Japan is definitely on my wife's travel list (she balances out my audio hobby with her travel hobby) so I would factor in a visit to your place if possible in the future.

 

[ChrisSoundLab]

Sounds great, Chris. I have already done a great deal of work with a (gently treated) dedicated listening room that imposes very little of itself on the playback. My selection of source components and their obsessive setup has always been focused on maximising fidelity to the source material rather than pleasing colourations. For this reason, I feel that truly transparent and low distortion loudspeakers that work sympathetically with their environment will fit into my system philosophy quite comfortably.

Japan is definitely on my wife's travel list (she balances out my audio hobby with her travel hobby) so I would factor in a visit to your place if possible in the future.

Great to hear, it is so nice when the journey for audio can take you exotic or interesting places and to allow that opportunity for a wife or partner is always a plus. You may have seen some of my recent youtube which show a bit of my environment - I am in the 'real rural' Japan, but also amazingly convenient - only 55min in the air - 5 times a day flights from Haneda (Tokyo) and I live 7 minutes away from the airport in Takamatsu. It's nearly impossible to give an impression of it all, until guests come (several times a year) and then you know! (wonderful food where I live too - not just speakers!)

 

[ChrisSoundLab]

While we wait for our next music installment from godofwealth, here’s a couple of short videos. Hope it might inspire. I believe in fact that two of our dealers now have demo models for which they are interested to find good homes … including G9-7C (audiophile trim in fact same as godofwealth), G7-7C (in this video available after review), G7-5C, G7-3C and G5-4C (in video also after review)

With so many cost increases we face same challenge and unfortunately must raise prices from next year, good chance now to be had.

 

[Paul1960]

While we wait for our next music installment from godofwealth, here’s a couple of short videos. Hope it might inspire. I believe in fact that two of our dealers now have demo models for which they are interested to find good homes … including G9-7C (audiophile trim in fact same as godofwealth), G7-7C (in this video available after review), G7-5C, G7-3C and G5-4C (in video also after review)

With so many cost increases we face same challenge and unfortunately must raise prices from next year, good chance now to be had.

Both speakers in those videos appear to be much closer to the wall behind them than I thought was advisable for dipole panel speakers. I've always thought 5' was kind of the minimum distance for good sound and further was better. Is there something about the Soundlab design that makes that less critical?

 

[ChrisSoundLab]

Both speakers in those videos appear to be much closer to the wall behind them than I thought was advisable for dipole panel speakers. I've always thought 5' was kind of the minimum distance for good sound and further was better. Is there something about the Soundlab design that makes that less critical?

It's a good question. If one's room is large enough to allow for such positioning then 4 or 5 feet out from the wall is a good place to start. We didn't measure out from the wall, but moved the speakers around (fairly easy to do). In fact the larger green speaker panels are probably between 4 and 5 ft out from the wall - to the front of the panels anyway. The big thing to remember is that moving the speakers just an inch one way or another, especially when toeing in or not, make great differences and do not be afraid to try anything. Actually I set them up first with a toe in that seems 'natural' to do and then reduced the toe in and Tom was amazed at the difference and improvement - and if its ok to quote or paraphrase him here, he said that was something he would not have thought of doing. The sound stage just opened up and was magical (as I expected). Note that we were using the long wall of the room. I (we) have found using the long wall in many rooms have much better results and magical sound stages than using a room in the opposite configuration. Keep in mind there is NO different section for high or low frequencies, so sitting the nearfield is very much 'ok' (no need to be back for frequencies to merge from different drivers - either vertically or horizontally) This did mean that we still kept a slight toe in because we needed to keep the speakers somewhat near the back wall behind the speakers because the room is not so deep for the listening position. The toe in allow the back wave to reflect off at an angle. Closer to the wall (like in the small room with small G5s, the toe in is more to reflect the back wave away from reflecting on itself. Adding absorption behind the speaker is also useful and using a SALLIE (Roger's purpose built absorber) is very effective - because one does not have to absorb the whole wall behind the speaker because there is a very obvious convergence point or virtual point of origin of the sound behind the speaker - you just need to go behind the speaker to find it - very obvious. 45 degree dispersion from the panel forwards means that BEHIND the panel the sound is focusing to converge at one point. Absorb at this point and you effectively capture the back wave (no need to put absorption across the whole wall)

 

[microstrip]

Both speakers in those videos appear to be much closer to the wall behind them than I thought was advisable for dipole panel speakers. I've always thought 5' was kind of the minimum distance for good sound and further was better. Is there something about the Soundlab design that makes that less critical?

The main reason for keeping the planar (dipole) speakers away from the front wall is avoiding the immediate reflection of the out of phase back wave that will cancel the low bass of the speaker (destructive interference). If by any reason, the front wall absorbs bass, such as many drywall structures, or the room has excess of bass we can put them closer to walls. In my case, as the front wall was rigid 2 feet thick stone (extremely reflective) , I had to position the the A1 Px's 6 feet away from the wall.

 

[ChrisSoundLab]

Both speakers in those videos appear to be much closer to the wall behind them than I thought was advisable for dipole panel speakers. I've always thought 5' was kind of the minimum distance for good sound and further was better. Is there something about the Soundlab design that makes that less critical?

Here's a PDF... it is not updated but it is a good reference if you are interested to read .

 

[unboxed]

I am confused by some of the comments. I always thought planar speakers had to be placed to coincide with timing the reflective backwave in whole multiples. i.e. 1X, 2X not 1.1X etc. I always ended up placing Apogees, Quads, and now Sound Labs at 36-42" (accounting for toe-in differences). I never had the luxury of 6' of space and anything just over what I mentioned was a step backwards.

 

[ChrisSoundLab]

I am confused by some of the comments. I always thought planar speakers had to be placed to coincide with timing the reflective backwave in whole multiples. i.e. 1X, 2X not 1.1X etc. I always ended up placing Apogees, Quads, and now Sound Labs at 36-42" (accounting for toe-in differences). I never had the luxury of 6' of space and anything just over what I mentioned was a step backwards.

I have learned from my experience anyway, (5 rooms and 7 different models) that there are no fixed rules at all. The complexity of what a room and walls does to the response of speakers is nearly incalculable ... keeping in mind the wave exiting the back of the speaker has a convergence and then past that convergence it again widens - like an X - where the middle of the X is a virtual source point. If the convergence meets the wall, then a lot of energy is being reflected from one point, so you are going to get a big reflection from that one point. If the speaker is further away, then energy from different parts of the panel are hitting the wall at different points and will have different trajectories (might think of it as dispersion) - and if the speakers are very CLOSE to the wall, then this also is true - the energy is hitting the wall before convergence and if speakers are toed-in, then the close proximity to the wall will reflect the energy away from coming back to cancel itself.... I'm hoping that the explanation is making sense. As Roger says, behind the speaker absorption is preferred, behind the listeners head (if there is a wall), dispersion is usually preferred.

 

[Paul1960]

1x or 2x of what? This is a table of the length of soundwaves by octave in feet. My understanding is the important thing is that the reflection from the back wall has to be sufficiently delayed that the brain easily discriminates it from the main signal. That is also made easier if the backwave reflection is attenuated or diffracted.

Table of Soundwave Lengths​

Frequency (Hz)	Wavelength (feet)
30	37.67
60	18.83
120	9.42
240	4.71
480	2.35
960	1.18
1920	0.59

 

[godofwealth]

I think you can get away with placing electrostatic loudspeakers much closer to the back wall by angling the loudspeakers. Peter Walker himself suggested as much 50 odd years ago in an article. In my guest room, I have a pair of Quad 2805s that are about 2.5’ from the rear wall and angled to face the listener. I sit really close when I listen to the 2805’s, about 6-7’ away.

The much larger G9-7c’s that I use in my great room are about 5-6’ away from the back wall. They’re not angled much. As @ChrisSoundLab notes, the larger SL’s sound more open if you keep them relatively parallel to the back wall.

This is an older photo. I think I moved them away from the back wall a bit more afterwards. I haven’t tweaked their placement in many months. They sound so terrific that I simply listen to music and don’t waste too much time tweaking them. Given the 90-degree weather is in the San Francisco Bay Area inland regions, and I live about 15 miles from the Pacific Ocean, I’ve moved back to using my solid state Mola Mola’s.

 

[godofwealth]

Just checked. I was wrong. They’re only about 4’ away from the back wall now. That feels like plenty to me.