When listening to these systems I tended to focus (in no particular order) on tonal balance, transparency, scale, low frequency capability, and dynamics. I think some of what I mean by transparency overlaps with some of what you mean by presence.
I cannot comment on whether the systems recreated large and small scale performances with equal degrees of presence and believability, because we did not listen to any large scale performances. (I take as a given that the large speaker systems will sound good reproducing large scale performances.)
Because my primary interest is vocals I feel I am on the lookout primarily as to whether these large speaker systems recreate small scale performances in a believable way.
I do not feel comfortable comparing these systems to small speakers and mini-monitors because I do not have experience with mini-monitors. I just do not know what mini-monitors sound like or what kind of "stage" they recreate. My whole prior experience has been with big, open, dipoles. The Wilson Alexia is the smallest speaker with which I am quite familiar.
So a logical follow-up is "if you care primarily about small vocal performances why do you want big speakers?" I think my answer goes back to your definition of presence: ". . . A system which has presence has the ability to fill the room and surround the listener . . ." I think the ability of the large speakers to recreate scale generates the true-to-life-size "stage" on which the small scale vocal performances can believably occur.
Each of the large systems I auditioned can create a believable and large scale stage. Having achieved that scale (along with transparency, dynamics and low frequency capability) I then listen for how believable is the recreation of the original small scale performance on that large scale stage.
I agree that with larger size and more expensive speakers we get improvements in scale and extension. Your point is that those improvements are not unambiguously good if the focus is on small scale performances. I will know a lot more when I come to visit you and Al!
What do you feel gets lost when a large system recreates a small scale performance?
Thanks Ron. That answers my questions and the first statement in bold in particular. I agree, I think what I describe as presence is in part covered by your understanding of transparency.
However, your second statement in bold leads me to think that I may not have been clear enough in my explanation regarding scale and speaker size. All else being equal, and given the budget and an appropriate room, I would prefer a large scale speaker system because the really good ones must be less compromised than even the best small mini monitors. Having said that though, the large scale speakers that I have heard have not reproduced large scale music AND small scale music in equally convincing ways.
The small speakers, mine included, break down and simply can't move the air, don't have the extension and can't scale up to do symphonic music. That is clear, and my system has that fault. However, the large speakers that I have heard, Nola four tower Grand Reference?, the Magico Q7, the Wilson XLF, and some others, when I have heard them, have not been able to convincingly also reproduce the solo singer or cello. The instrument or voice simply sounds too big to be believable. I have heard solo cello many times live, right in front of me, and it almost always seems to big from large speakers. I don't know why this is the case, but I suspect it has something to do with the driver heights, the rooms/set up or something else. Perhaps I was just unlucky in those demos. The other issue is that these large speakers have not disappeared as sound sources like really good and properly set up smaller speakers can in my experience.
The one exception that I have heard is MadFloyd's Magico M Project. I was astonished at how effortlessly, and effectively, it can switch from large scale to small scale and make the full symphony or solo violin sound equally convincing in both scale, image and Presence. That is a first for me and it was thrilling.
I am intrigued by your comment that big speakers are required to fill the room and create a soundstage big enough to give the illusion of a life like setting. I understand that and appreciate the idea. I can see a large speaker system in a large room present a more accurate stage in terms of scale than a small speaker can, but I have not heard those same large speakers convincingly present the solo violin at the right image size. IME, that violin has always been too big, except for with the M Project. If the systems which you have auditioned recently can do that, then I believe you and I would love to hear such a presentation. Mike L has written that his system can do this and I have to believe him.
So, to answer your last question: The thing that most gets lost when the large systems that I have heard try to play a small scale performance is simply that: a believable recreation of the proper scale, size and image of the solo instrument or voice. I just lose interest when a singer's head or violin is three feet wide or seven feet in the air. I can no longer suspend my disbelief, as they say.
And I don't think that small speakers are incapable of filling a room. In my experience, a small speaker, if properly designed, driven and set up, can easily fill a small room and create that sense of presence and appropriate scale. It just can't do it in a very large space or with large scale music.
Your explanation of the large speaker being needed to create a realistic sized soundstage even for a small scale performance is excellent, and now I better understand why you are focussing on these large scale speaker systems. It makes be realize that I need more exposure to these four tower systems, even if they just make be aware of what is possible and I never am fortunate enough to own one.
