Source used to make vinyl

[Alrainbow]

Here is a question , I have vinyl sourced
From digital and analog.
It’s not for be to choose what is better , but
Playback of digital sources in a digital playback compared to vinyl
vinyl when great has an attack and dynamic sound that digital has less of any digital playback.
why is this ?
My thought is vinyl has riaa curve eq
It’s an actual curve and I think this maybe why.
Digital has no such playback eq
any thoughts on this ?

 

[hopkins]

Out of curiosity, would an answer change in any way what you listen to?

 

[Bruce B]

Tape has EQ...

DAC'S have filters.... sometimes optional, that you can change.

To further add.... you can Add EQ to digital signals for voicing and room correction!

 

[mtemur]

Here is a question , I have vinyl sourced
From digital and analog.
It’s not for be to choose what is better , but
Playback of digital sources in a digital playback compared to vinyl
vinyl when great has an attack and dynamic sound that digital has less of any digital playback.
why is this ?
My thought is vinyl has riaa curve eq
It’s an actual curve and I think this maybe why.
Digital has no such playback eq
any thoughts on this ?

Considering that you or anyone else has a very well-set-up and accurately performing turntable, vinyl will still play more dynamically than its digital counterpart. I mention this to eliminate the possibility of the turntable setup and related parameters being the reason for this difference. So, why does vinyl sound more dynamic and have better attack than digital, even when compared to the master file it was cut from?

There are two main reasons for this:

- The cutterhead has mass and cannot start or stop instantly on a microscopic level. This results in extended dynamic swings. Think of it like a bus zigzagging. During loud passages, the cutterhead moves with large displacements and at high speeds. When it needs to move in the opposite direction, it cannot stop instantly, which results in highly modulated grooves compared to the original signal.
In contrast, a digital signal has no mass and can start and stop instantly. It can go from silence to full output and back to silence without any delay. Additionally, the playback stylus on cartridges further enhances dynamics because it also has mass and experiences the same issue as the cutterhead.

- Inevitable phase alterations on vinyl. Vinyl is not completely flat on a microscopic level, and there are always small variations in the phase relationships between the two channels. These slight phase alterations can cause subtle changes in sound that are often perceived as liveliness.

This phenomenon doesn’t only apply to digital sources; it applies to all sources that vinyl is cut from.

I prefer vinyl sound over digital, found it more natural but this is the truth.

 

[Rexp]

Here is a question , I have vinyl sourced
From digital and analog.
It’s not for be to choose what is better , but
Playback of digital sources in a digital playback compared to vinyl
vinyl when great has an attack and dynamic sound that digital has less of any digital playback.
why is this ?
My thought is vinyl has riaa curve eq
It’s an actual curve and I think this maybe why.
Digital has no such playback eq
any thoughts on this ?

I bought a device once that allowed me to play CD's through my phono stage, alas they still sounded like CD's.

Digital recordings can sound better on vinyl because the vinyl mastering engineer tweaked the sound using studio equipment of some sort, would certainly like to know what.

 

[Tangram]

I may be mistaken but aren’t digital recordings for digital playback typically mastered with more compression than digital recordings for vinyl playback?

 

[Bruce B]

I may be mistaken but aren’t digital recordings for digital playback typically mastered with more compression than digital recordings for vinyl playback?

Yes, most times I had to give 2 versions to the label

 

[adrianywu]

My latest conclusion for commercial releases:
For analogue recordings assuming all formats available: Four-track>analogue LP>high def DSD>digital LP>high def PCM>CD>streaming
For digital recordings: high def DSD>high def PCM>digital LP>CD>streaming
Bearing in mind I have spent a lot more effort on analogue playback than digital.
As for original LPs vs. reissues, it really depends on the label and the era. As most of my original LPs were bought new, I would say I prefer the originals to the modern reissues more often.

 

[Rexp]

My latest conclusion for commercial releases:
For analogue recordings assuming all formats available: Four-track>analogue LP>high def DSD>digital LP>high def PCM>CD>streaming
For digital recordings: high def DSD>high def PCM>digital LP>CD>streaming
Bearing in mind I have spent a lot more effort on analogue playback than digital.
As for original LPs vs. reissues, it really depends on the label and the era. As most of my original LPs were bought new, I would say I prefer the originals to the modern reissues more often.

Most digital releases are lower def PCM recordings, where do they fit in your hierarchy?

 

[Gregm]

Most digital releases are lower def PCM recordings, where do they fit in your hierarchy?

Aren't recordings typically 24-96?

 

[Rexp]

Aren't recordings typically 24-96?

Yes, I think @adrianywu was referring to even higher def. DXD etc

 

[SoundMann]

Here is a question , I have vinyl sourced
From digital and analog.
It’s not for be to choose what is better , but
Playback of digital sources in a digital playback compared to vinyl
vinyl when great has an attack and dynamic sound that digital has less of any digital playback.
why is this ?
My thought is vinyl has riaa curve eq
It’s an actual curve and I think this maybe why.
Digital has no such playback eq
any thoughts on this ?

As an expert on the subject, I am going to tell it to you straight. Vinyl records are capable of storing a great deal more resolution than even high order DSD is currently capable of recording. These same records store a true dynamic range of scale that digital has yet to match.

Furthermore, vinyl records excel at PRaT which digital sorely lacks.

 

[adrianywu]

Most digital releases are lower def PCM recordings, where do they fit in your hierarchy?

For Red Book standard, that would be CDs. I won't rate MP3 etc. I guess my definition of high res would be 24/96 or above. I don't find the difference between DSD64, DSD128 and even DSD256 to be that great.

 

[Gregm]

As an expert on the subject, I am going to tell it to you straight. Vinyl records are capable of storing a great deal more resolution than even high order DSD is currently capable of recording. These same records store a true dynamic range of scale that digital has yet to match.

Furthermore, vinyl records excel at PRaT which digital sorely lacks.

Hi - with all due respect, you do know that your assertion is technically incorrect, don't you? As a medium, vinyl can offer about 12 (maybe 14dB) resolution; digital reaches 24 or 32; dynamic range can reach around 60-70dB but few cartridges can actually extract tha (reportedly Allaerts reaches ¬100dB), while digital easily exceeds 100dB)***...

When it comes to actual reproduction, we can argue that the sonic result with a well set-up vinyl rig is superior to its digital counterpart.

So, if reproduction is the bottom line (which it is in my book), you can prefer good vinyl any day of the week -- not for the technical specs involved but, rather, for the audible product***.


***for that matter, how many perceptible dBs resolution do speakers placed in a room have? Dynamic range?

 

[Rexp]

Hi - with all due respect, you do know that your assertion is technically incorrect, don't you? As a medium, vinyl can offer about 12 (maybe 14dB) resolution; digital reaches 24 or 32; dynamic range can reach around 60-70dB but few cartridges can actually extract tha (reportedly Allaerts reaches ¬100dB), while digital easily exceeds 100dB)***...

When it comes to actual reproduction, we can argue that the sonic result with a well set-up vinyl rig is superior to its digital counterpart.

So, if reproduction is the bottom line (which it is in my book), you can prefer good vinyl any day of the week -- not for the technical specs involved but, rather, for the audible product***.


***for that matter, how many perceptible dBs resolution do speakers placed in a room have? Dynamic range?

Because current ADC's are flawed, when you pass an analog signal through ADDA it is not perfectly recreated so itt being higher resolution doesn't matter as it's going to sound worse than the original analog sound.

 

[mtemur]

Hi - with all due respect, you do know that your assertion is technically incorrect, don't you? As a medium, vinyl can offer about 12 (maybe 14dB) resolution; digital reaches 24 or 32; dynamic range can reach around 60-70dB but few cartridges can actually extract tha (reportedly Allaerts reaches ¬100dB), while digital easily exceeds 100dB)***...

You actually replied to @SoundMann ’s post -sorry, I jumped in.

Please show me recordings with a 60-70 dB dynamic range. Unfortunately, most -if not all- are stuck around 13-14 dB of dynamic range. Among music CDs, I’ve seen only a couple exceeding 20 dB. It’s even worse with streaming services and newer releases.

If your goal is measurement or signal processing, you can work with 96 dB (16-bit CD), but when it comes to commercial music releases, it’s a different story.

 

[microstrip]

Considering that you or anyone else has a very well-set-up and accurately performing turntable, vinyl will still play more dynamically than its digital counterpart. I mention this to eliminate the possibility of the turntable setup and related parameters being the reason for this difference. So, why does vinyl sound more dynamic and have better attack than digital, even when compared to the master file it was cut from?

Well, some of the "anyone else" will disagree with you.

There are two main reasons for this:

- The cutterhead has mass and cannot start or stop instantly on a microscopic level. This results in extended dynamic swings. Think of it like a bus zigzagging. During loud passages, the cutterhead moves with large displacements and at high speeds. When it needs to move in the opposite direction, it cannot stop instantly, which results in highly modulated grooves compared to the original signal.

In fact all that the cutterhead can do is compressing the signal due to inertia, not expand it. Probably it also changes the distortion spectrum, creating a subjective feeling of dynamics. At worst, the cutterhead can reduce dynamics due to thermal compression.

BTW, I own tape and find my few tapes have better sense of dynamics than vinyl.

In contrast, a digital signal has no mass and can start and stop instantly. It can go from silence to full output and back to silence without any delay.

As well as tape.

Additionally, the playback stylus on cartridges further enhances dynamics because it also has mass and experiences the same issue as the cutterhead.

In some sense. It is why some people are raving about the optical cartridges - free from back EMF.

- Inevitable phase alterations on vinyl. Vinyl is not completely flat on a microscopic level, and there are always small variations in the phase relationships between the two channels. These slight phase alterations can cause subtle changes in sound that are often perceived as liveliness.

Well, most consider it a nuisance.

This phenomenon doesn’t only apply to digital sources; it applies to all sources that vinyl is cut from.

I prefer vinyl sound over digital, found it more natural but this is the truth.

It is the more important aspect - our own preference, created by decades of listening and beliefs . They will not change with our debates!

 

[microstrip]

(...) Unfortunately, most -if not all- are stuck around 13-14 dB of dynamic range.

The Dynamic Range Database lists recordings having over 20 dB. Unfortunately we can not find there the values for the more frequently referred high dynamics classical recordings.

Among music CDs, I’ve seen only a couple exceeding 20 dB. It’s even worse with streaming services and newer releases.

Are you saying that a streamed version has lower dynamics than the equivalent CD?

 

[mtemur]

The Dynamic Range Database lists recordings having over 20 dB. Unfortunately we can not find there the values for the more frequently referred high dynamics classical recordings.



Are you saying that a streamed version has lower dynamics than the equivalent CD?

Most of them don’t exceed 20dB. Newer CD pressings and stream versions are usually (not always) more compressed than older CDs and LPs.

 

[mtemur]

Well, some of the "anyone else" will disagree with you.



In fact all that the cutterhead can do is compressing the signal due to inertia, not expand it. Probably it also changes the distortion spectrum, creating a subjective feeling of dynamics. At worst, the cutterhead can reduce dynamics due to thermal compression.

BTW, I own tape and find my few tapes have better sense of dynamics than vinyl.



As well as tape.


In some sense. It is why some people are raving about the optical cartridges - free from back EMF.



Well, most consider it a nuisance.



It is the more important aspect - our own preference, created by decades of listening and beliefs . They will not change with our debates!

Then, you don’t have a good enough vinyl playback setup to compete.