Speaker (and for that matter, electronics) Preferences

[microstrip]

(...) I'm a little tired of this one, frankly. Someone yesterday made a comment to the effect that the poor subjectivists here were being beat up. The internet audiophile community is up to its ears with boardsfull of psychotically aggressive, combative Audiophiles who will take your head off at the suggestion that a modest product could compete with an Audiophile brand. There are a couple of them where referencing actual evidence of performance is quarrantined or banned.

Go there if you cannot stand to have your opinions challenged by actual evidence. Tell them the people you know and the equipment you own and have owned, and most importantly, the money you'vce spent, and you will be treated as a demigod. Here, there is a bit of balance. We have people who listen to what they like based on whatever they hear and don't care how it performs in testing as long as they still like it. We have people who believe in the science and engineering of audio and reference it as a resource for purchasing, or for just furthering their knowledge. And we have people who make their choices purely subjectively, but are oddly compelled to insist that their choices are somehow objectively superior, violently denying any evidence to the contrary.

All are welcome to express their points of view and all the rest are welcome to challenge them. You want a place where you won't be challenged? Hell, I can recommend some places where you will be honored as a leader of men, just for the money you've spent. Want a list?

Tim

"Joan Of Arc"

Now the flames they followed Joan of Arc
as she came riding through the dark;
no moon to keep her armour bright,
no man to get her through this very smoky night.
She said, "I'm tired of the war,
I want the kind of work I had before,
a wedding dress or something white
to wear upon my swollen appetite."
Well, I'm glad to hear you talk this way,
you know I've watched you riding every day
and something in me yearns to win
such a cold and lonesome heroine.
"And who are you?" she sternly spoke
to the one beneath the smoke.
"Why, I'm fire," he replied,
"And I love your solitude, I love your pride."
(...)
Tim,

I will now look for the Leonard Cohen recording. Will you join me or do you prefer Jennifer Warnes?

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

"Joan Of Arc"

Now the flames they followed Joan of Arc
as she came riding through the dark;
no moon to keep her armour bright,
no man to get her through this very smoky night.
She said, "I'm tired of the war,
I want the kind of work I had before,
a wedding dress or something white
to wear upon my swollen appetite."
Well, I'm glad to hear you talk this way,
you know I've watched you riding every day
and something in me yearns to win
such a cold and lonesome heroine.
"And who are you?" she sternly spoke
to the one beneath the smoke.
"Why, I'm fire," he replied,
"And I love your solitude, I love your pride."
(...)
Tim,

I will now look for the Leonard Cohen recording. Will you join me or do you prefer Jennifer Warnes?

I'm not tired of the debate, Micro. This debate in particular is pretty facinating because there are very well-constructed studies, delivering very buttoned-up evidence that challenges some core audiophile beliefs. If we can't talk about this, what can we talk about?

What I'm tired of is the whining. To all of you on the other side of this debate who have fought the good fight and done your best to present evidence against the Harman study --Salute!! To those who have compained about the imbalance of the board or the unfairness of the arguments of the objective side because you haven't won the debate, might I suggest Audio Asylum?

And I prefer Cohen. The Warnes effort, like a wet raincoat, is too slick for my tastes.

Tim

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

please find where i said that i am happy with objectively inferior choices. i simply select another approach for my decisions. when that 'better approach' you speak about results in a demonstratably better product to my ears, i'll be looking at that approach much more carefully. the proof is in the percieved performance.

I don't think you are the guy who is happy with his choices, even when they are inferior to something else by objective standards.

are you sure you got it all out? any other shots you want to take?

You complain about the numbers of the opposition to your point of view, accuse the management of a subjectivist agenda, say there is no discussion of "high-end" on this board, and you think there's a shot in there? That was a sincere suggestion. If you feel abused here, there are plenty of places where you would not only be more than welcome,you can sit back and see what real abuse looks like, going the other way.

Tim

 

[JasonI]

i have respect for the methodology that Harmon uses. i'm not saying it is without merit. where did i say that? but that does not mean i choose that way for myself or that if i choose to not go that way my opinions are not valid.

maybe someday if Harmon builds a speaker that is clearly better than the competition than i will pay attention to their approach. but until that point i'll leave it up to you guys to worship at the Harmon altar.

As has been said before, Harman offers transparency. It's both an innovative marketing tactic and a way to assist in reducing the number of available choices. After all most of us don't have the time or money to try even a small number of the available products at home. I argue that Harman's transparency and efforts to progress the audio industry have engendered people to them, thus the worshiping at the altar of Harman.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Oh, I thought you were talking about Mark's thread. I don't recall participating and making the decision on that thread. I agree that title is inflammatory. Let me discuss it with the team and decide what to do about it.

thank you for cutting the 'why audiophiles fear measurments' thread free of sticky to die it's natural death.

 

[andromedaaudio]

I hope that harman doesnt skip on the powersupplies of the 532 amps , i didnt like what i saw in the pics of the inside , auchsss
I hate to see my beloved high end brand go down the .........

As has been said before, Harman offers transparency. It's both an innovative marketing tactic and a way to assist in reducing the number of available choices. After all most of us don't have the time or money to try even a small number of the available products at home. I argue that Harman's transparency and efforts to progress the audio industry have engendered people to them, thus the worshiping at the altar of Harman.

 

[terryj]

i've done lots of blind listening to speakers in a controled environment. every other year our local club has a speaker building contest, and for the last 12 years i've been a judge in these contests. 3 or 4 of us listen for 3-4 hours to 12-15 sets of speakers behind a curtain and rate them in various catagories.

Hi Mike

THIS I find interesting, and would love to be a part of it!

Anyway, a few points. For the naysayers at least, we can conclude that blind testing per se does nothing to prevent an honest evaluation of the sound of a speaker?

Anyway, on to what I want to ask you. (before that, out of curiosity can you recall any sort of time when you looked at something you had judged and gone 'OMG, I markes THIS one THAT way'? or somesuch. Ie, any incident that might have 'proved' a sighted eval could have made the mark different??)...

I presume that along with the blind audition of the speakers there were also the technical side, measurements of these speakers. Without getting into a real dissection of the measurements (which may not even have hapopened) did there seem to be any sort of 'general' results that went along with the listening results?

Real vague even...'reasonably accurate on axis kinda did better than less, the really screwed up on axis ones almost always came out worst'..that type of thing.

If youy don't know, is there someone at the club we could ask? There shopuld be records.

All I am saying is that, at least on broad brush strokes, there could be anecdotal agr\eement or disagreement with harmon here. I recall on DIY audio that in a certain event (puget sound???) the speakersare jusdged blind, and measured of course, and there too 'the better the measurements the better the subjective evaluation' holds true.

Your event might be another data point.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Hi Mike

THIS I find interesting, and would love to be a part of it!

Anyway, a few points. For the naysayers at least, we can conclude that blind testing per se does nothing to prevent an honest evaluation of the sound of a speaker?

hi Terry,

blind testing per se does not prevent honest evaluation up to a point; however, the reality is that blind listening is almost always short term listening, of which i am skeptical as far as it's value for gear decisions. if some other fellow likes it, i have no argument with that person. i only have a probem with someone devaluing my perspectives because i don't make decisons that way.

with a speaker building contest, blind listening is a very useful tool for quick judgements. and we have done it enough times to have some confidence in our process.

Anyway, on to what I want to ask you. (before that, out of curiosity can you recall any sort of time when you looked at something you had judged and gone 'OMG, I markes THIS one THAT way'? or somesuch. Ie, any incident that might have 'proved' a sighted eval could have made the mark different??)...

I presume that along with the blind audition of the speakers there were also the technical side, measurements of these speakers. Without getting into a real dissection of the measurements (which may not even have hapopened) did there seem to be any sort of 'general' results that went along with the listening results?

Real vague even...'reasonably accurate on axis kinda did better than less, the really screwed up on axis ones almost always came out worst'..that type of thing.

some years a local speaker driver building company has attended and set up a separate room for measurements. i've not got involved in those; and i've never looked into the relationship between my blind ratings and measurements. these contests happen on a Saturday morning, and i work part days on Saturdays, so when the contest is over i'm typically off to work.

one more point; blind speaker judging for 4 hours is hard work. the level of concentration required is considerable, and you are trying your best to be fair to these guys who have worked hard to build these speakers. they are proud of their creations and so you try to give them your best. it's an honor to be asked to be a judge, but also a good deal of effort. i don't yet know whether they will ask me to judge again for this year.

sorry i cannot be of more help.

If youy don't know, is there someone at the club we could ask? There shopuld be records.

All I am saying is that, at least on broad brush strokes, there could be anecdotal agr\eement or disagreement with harmon here. I recall on DIY audio that in a certain event (puget sound???) the speakersare jusdged blind, and measured of course, and there too 'the better the measurements the better the subjective evaluation' holds true.

Your event might be another data point.

both Bruce Brown and Gary Koh here on WBF are in the club. i will think about who could answer your questions and try to PM an email address to you about this. better yet you could attend this year, it will be in early September near Seattle.

 

[terryj]

hi Terry,


one more point; blind speaker judging for 4 hours is hard work. the level of concentration required is considerable, and you are trying your best to be fair to these guys who have worked hard to build these speakers. they are proud of their creations and so you try to give them your best. it's an honor to be asked to be a judge, but also a good deal of effort. i don't yet know whether they will ask me to judge again for this year.

sorry i cannot be of more help.

Yeah, it would be hard work! But hopefully enjoyable none the less.

I'd love to make it, but prob not (am in australia). Even harder would be to take mine over, made of concrete haha so shipping might be a bugger.

Thanks mike

 

[NorthStar]

"Joan Of Arc"

Now the flames they followed Joan of Arc
as she came riding through the dark;
no moon to keep her armour bright,
no man to get her through this very smoky night.
She said, "I'm tired of the war,
I want the kind of work I had before,
a wedding dress or something white
to wear upon my swollen appetite."
Well, I'm glad to hear you talk this way,
you know I've watched you riding every day
and something in me yearns to win
such a cold and lonesome heroine.
"And who are you?" she sternly spoke
to the one beneath the smoke.
"Why, I'm fire," he replied,
"And I love your solitude, I love your pride."
(...)
Tim,

I will now look for the Leonard Cohen recording. Will you join me or do you prefer Jennifer Warnes?

-----Lovely! :b

 

[Soundproof]

If I understand Myles correctly, given his references to biology and the pre-frontal cortex, then high-end loudspeaker manufacturers are doing some pretty advanced cognitive studies these days.

Right.

 

[FrantzM]

If I understand Myles correctly, given his references to biology and the pre-frontal cortex, then high-end loudspeaker manufacturers are doing some pretty advanced cognitive studies these days.

Right.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Sorry i meant 532 h , the 532 looks gorgeous from the inside, http://www.studio-22.com/marklevinson/532.htm
I am just a little concerned about a switching design , i dont know in how far the 532 is that , i ll have to read some more about it , amirim has compared them probaly to older levinsons???

I hope that harman doesnt skip on the powersupplies of the 532 amps , i didnt like what i saw in the pics of the inside , auchsss
I hate to see my beloved high end brand go down the .........

 

[JackD201]

I don't know about the 532s but I've heard 52s toying with hungry Eggleston The Nines like they were Ping Pong balls.

 

[andromedaaudio]

53 s probably , great so the power is exxcelent and soundwise ???? , is it a different sound then the levinson (housesound ) which is a bit warm /dark sounding in my opinion .

 

[JackD201]

Closer to 400 than 300 series

 

[amirm]

Sorry i meant 532 h , the 532 looks gorgeous from the inside, http://www.studio-22.com/marklevinson/532.htm
I am just a little concerned about a switching design , i dont know in how far the 532 is that , i ll have to read some more about it , amirim has compared them probaly to older levinsons???

Neither the 532 or 532h are switching designs. Only the 53 is. The 53 by the way, has the same power supply as the reference 532.

And no, I have not compared it to older units. I have however compared the 532h to 532 and they sound pretty similar until the last so many decibels where it loses to Reference 532. Until it runs out of juice there, it is a very nice sounding amplifier and much better than lighter weight amps.

As I noted in another thread, the 532h is a very reliable design.

 

[amirm]

53 s probably , great so the power is exxcelent and soundwise ???? , is it a different sound then the levinson (housesound ) which is a bit warm /dark sounding in my opinion .

The 53 simply has more power. Nothing comes close to it. Not even the Reference 532h. It grabs a hold of the speaker and does not let go! It is utterly neutral sounding to my ears and gives up nothing there. It is the only switchmode amplifier I have tested which has super clean high frequency reproduction. Its effective 4 Mhz switching frequency is about 10X higher that other designs, allowing it to use pretty gentle filters. I wrote a bit on the design of the Mark Levinson 53 here: http://www.madronadigital.com/Library/MarkLevinsonNo53Amplifier.html

 

[andromedaaudio]

unfortunately i dont have the opportunity overhere to listen to 53 s .
Tomorrow i m gonna listen (at least this week for sure ) to sashas connected to 326 s , 532h and probably levinson digital.
And sophia 3 series on linn climax gear , should be fun

hj

 

[andromedaaudio]

If i reread the opening message of the thread , its kind of like the other way around for me , i like or dislike a hifi product within the first couple of minutes , and that does never really/fundamentally change again .
products i bought with the slighest doubt during purchase quickly left the set up , i made mistakes who hasnt