speaker hook up wire ( between crossover and drivers )

Solypsa

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I am finally finishing a diy speaker project that has been on the back burner nearly a decade. Anyways...would like to discuss preferences for wire / cable to connect the drivers ( compression driver and 15" woofer ) to the passive crossover which will be just outside the cabinet. And for that matter same for within the crossover if need be.

For those that know me I am a bit allergic to many high-end cable products so would prefer to discuss:
1) cable material
2) cable gauge
3) cable construction
4) and maybe cable dielectric.

In particular I wonder if anyone has experience with solid core cable in this role ?

Thanks is advance...
 

cjf

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A few years back I built a few DIY Amps where I used Mogami 3104 (4 Conductor @12awg each) for the wiring from the Amp board to the Internal Binding posts. I removed the outer jacket that encases the four individual 12awg cables inside. I then did a double run, tightly twisted, of that cable to the binding posts (about 9awg combined).

It was pretty cheap to buy this in bulk and separate the cables as described. I found it to work quite well. Just good quality highly stranded OFC copper at the end of the day.

I've rewired speakers in the past as well using better cable. Back then it was a Monster Cable ordeal but I wouldn't hesitate to just use the Mogami I listed above or just get a similar Mogami that is a single wire of the appropriate gauge. I probably wouldnt go much smaller than 12awg myself for such a task.

Not a fan of Solid Core cables for speakers, internal or external but I might be alone on this
 

Cellcbern

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I would use Dueland tinned copper wire (oiled cotton dielectric) which you can get at Parts Connexion in 20, 16, and 12 ga. See Jeff's Place (Jeff Day) at Positive Feedback online for extensive coverage of his use of this wire to rewire speakers and external crossovers.


 
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Solypsa

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Not a fan of Solid Core cables for speakers, internal or external but I might be alone on this
With all due respect ( intended sincerely ) why did you come to this conclusion?
 

Gregm

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In particular I wonder if anyone has experience with solid core cable in this role ?

Thanks is advance...
I have. I replaced the internal (multistranded) wires in my Genesis Vs with solid core copper, 1.2mm for the woofers, 1.0 & 0.8 for mid-bass & mid, and 0.8 for the tweeter.
Subjectively, the solid core gave a clearer, more crispy, and solid (sorry) sound.
 

Cellcbern

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With all due respect ( intended sincerely ) why did you come to this conclusion?
1- the reviews - no wire has been so extensively reviewed and tested.

2 - direct experience - I’ve tried both the 20 ga and 16 ga as interconnects. I’ve also used both as internal hookup wire in the upgrading of two amplifiers. In consultation with the founder/CEO of Bache Audio we’ve decided to rewire my speakers with it when upgrading the tweeter to Fostex.

If you google it I believe you will find a lot of people selecting it for internal speaker hookup wire.
 

Solypsa

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My question, which you quote, was directed to @cjf regarding solid core wire. I do appreciate your detailing personal experience with the Duelund wire however :)
 

Audiophile Bill

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My question, which you quote, was directed to @cjf regarding solid core wire. I do appreciate your detailing personal experience with the Duelund wire however :)

I also like the Dueland tin platted copper tbh. I like to avoid plastic where possible - these are oil impregnated cloth.
The sonic signature is natural and refined with lots of texture and density. Never tippy or “hifi” sounding - meaning accentuating frequencies in this definition. Some will say they are a bit rolled off sounding - I hear that as natural and not high accentuated, which sounds unrealistic to me.

I am not a fan of silver plated copper normally on the whole fwiw.

Jupiter also make some interesting cloth based conductors if you wanted an alternative.

Another option is solid core solid silver in a silk sheath - this sounds very good depending on system balance.
 

DonH50

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I would use any decent heavy-gauge cable since the runs are very short but you do want to keep the impedance as low as possible. I would not use any sort of oiled cloth dielectric due to the potential for drying out and oil incursion into the actual metal over (long) time, just decent typical foamed polyxxx or whatever. Teflon would not be my first choice, perhaps foamed Teflon, since it is less flexible and tends to melt at lower temperature when assembling. Teflon also tends to exhibit higher dielectric noise and hysteresis but that is (far) in the mud for audio cables, and especially for speaker cables. I would use stranded simply because it is easier to work with and the flex works better in a high-vibration environment. Solid wire will sound the same IMO but over time is more likely to cause solder/connector cracks and loosening since the wire does flex. If you do use solid, then put a little loose coil at each end for strain relief.

Mogami would be great, though so would any decent 12 AWG or whatever cable. I would route the cables separately to the drivers so if using quad Mogami (Canare, whatever) would double up the wires to use one for each driver to minimize crosstalk among drivers (again unlikely to be an issue for audio but since you can...) Crosstalk will usually be dominated by the drivers' interaction with each other via the air in the enclosure, though if the drivers are mechanically isolated that is less an issue.

IME/IMO - Don
 
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Cellcbern

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The Dueland tinned copper cables are dry to the touch (they are baked) so I'm not sure if there is a potential oil incursion issue. There is also a ("high voltage") version with the same material that the top of the line Dueland capacitors are wrapped in used as the dielectric.
 
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DaveC

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A few points...

- Wire will corrode if exposed to air. You need a dielectric that will prevent this and you should protect the terminations as well.

- Duelund wire is very colored. I've used the silver and copper, and it's impossible to predict results because it's so far from neutral. Even Jeff Day admits that Duelund wire works well in some applications and not others. I got tired of sending out cables that didn't work for so many people. My UPOCC cables are much more neutral and thus much more predictable as far as how they will work in a system, they will produce a much more immersive and 3-D soundstage and more distinct timbre vs Duelund. Also, vintage WE wire is much better than Duelund if you really want that vintage tinned-copper sound. I understand why some like it, but it's a tweak that will result in much lower resolution vs other alternatives.

- Mogami copper wire is also very warm sounding but not quite as colored as Duelund. Both are poor choices IMO. (Sorry to those who like it, no offense intended). This kind of wire is a great way to permanently handicap your system.

- UPOCC silver with teflon insulation is the most neutral wire available, period. Nothing is even close. It shows the most resolution, the most clarity, the most difference between recordings and the most distinct timbre. It doesn't round-over leading edges not does it exaggerate them. Some find it too "dry" sounding depending on the system so I often use gold, ribbon shaped conductors and/or heavier gauges to avoid that. This does add coloration but it's subtle and unobtrusive vs other options. It's like a scalpel while Duelund oiled wire is like a sledgehammer.

- For woofers silver plated copper with teflon is really hard to beat, it's much less $$$ vs pure UPOCC silver and since you don't have to worry about highs you won't have to worry about the fact it's less refined vs UPOCC silver. If the woofer plays over ~500 Hz then I'd look at pure UPOCC silver though as it's getting into the mids, especially with a xo of more gradual slope.

- Inside a speaker cab is a high vibration environment and you should take this into account. Ptp runs of solid-core wire without securing the wire or adding damping is not going to work out very well...

- Run internal wire in a noise-canceling geometry wherever possible. IDK why, but many folks feel like actual cables are no longer necessary once you get inside the speaker and they just use single runs of wire everywhere with no regard for seemingly anything. IMO a twisted pair is a minimum requirement and single runs of signal or ground should be minimized and kept as short as possible.

- Use good binding posts and solder the wire to the drivers or use Furutech pure copper push-connectors. Steel push-connectors as commonly used sound horrible. I'd recommend WBT silver binding posts and spades if you don't mind the high prices. Furutech has some great options too like FT-865R at lower prices and their FT-211R spades are excellent.

- I offer any of my cables as custom internal cable. Including the high-efficiency cables for mids and highs... :) I can also sell any wire I use.
 

Solypsa

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Thanks all!

I was thinking of buying some 'pro audio' speaker cable for the internal wiring but wanted some insights from wbf. I will probably get a lot of flack for this but I was considering Gotham 50150 ( that coaxial speaker cable). I had forgotten about Duelund tbh and will revisit it.

@DaveC Thanks for your detailed post. I look forward to reading your posts and given that I generally avoid most 'cable talk' that is saying a lot ;)

Will look at the silver WBT posts. Again I probably shouldn't admit this but was considering using Speakon...not because I don't care btw but I have never felt like binding posts kept a tight connection over time.
 

DaveC

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Neutrik SpeakON connectors have positive retention and lower contact resistance than bananas or binding posts.

You can't say that without specifying which posts/connectors you're talking about. I'm pretty sure WBT posts + spades are much better vs Speakon actually.

Speakons are good and economical but do add some grain vs top end posts. I'd use speakons for woofers but not mids/highs.
 
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DonH50

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You can't say that without specifying which posts/connectors you're talking about. I'm pretty sure WBT posts + spades are much better vs Speakon actually.

Speakons are good and economical but do add some grain vs top end posts. I'd use speakons for woofers but not mids/highs.

True, I have no experience with WBT, but in general without a positive means of retaining clamping force over time the contact resistance of spades increases over time reportedly more than SpeakON connectors (per various data from Neutrik, Benchmark, etc.) I could come back with "you don't know either" but tit-for-tat is pointless; I have no data on WBT posts and spades. It would be interesting to see measured data on contact resistance (impedance) over time for both, and other connections, but that is generally beyond the scope of WBF.

I am intentionally avoiding discussions of sonic attributes as that is beyond my experience. They either work for the application or they do not, have not experienced differences in the sound of say a silver vs. copper binding post.

A long-winded "I don't know". I forgot my place, sorry.
 

Audiophile Bill

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True, I have no experience with WBT, but in general without a positive means of retaining clamping force over time the contact resistance of spades increases over time reportedly more than SpeakON connectors (per various data from Neutrik, Benchmark, etc.) I could come back with "you don't know either" but tit-for-tat is pointless; I have no data on WBT posts and spades. It would be interesting to see measured data on contact resistance (impedance) over time for both, and other connections, but that is generally beyond the scope of WBF.

I am intentionally avoiding discussions of sonic attributes as that is beyond my experience. They either work for the application or they do not, have not experienced differences in the sound of say a silver vs. copper binding post.

A long-winded "I don't know". I forgot my place, sorry.

The other key advantage not mentioned imho - speakon lock into their sockets so effectively.
 
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DaveC

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True, I have no experience with WBT, but in general without a positive means of retaining clamping force over time the contact resistance of spades increases over time reportedly more than SpeakON connectors (per various data from Neutrik, Benchmark, etc.) I could come back with "you don't know either" but tit-for-tat is pointless; I have no data on WBT posts and spades. It would be interesting to see measured data on contact resistance (impedance) over time for both, and other connections, but that is generally beyond the scope of WBF.

I am intentionally avoiding discussions of sonic attributes as that is beyond my experience. They either work for the application or they do not, have not experienced differences in the sound of say a silver vs. copper binding post.

A long-winded "I don't know". I forgot my place, sorry.

No problem, bringing up contact resistance is a good point and an issue with SC applications.

In one of our past threads this exact subject came up and I believe microstrip posted the contact resistance of WBT silver binding posts and it's VERY low. They have a ton of surface area and the sandwich spades have a viscoelastic layer than makes for better clamping as well as managing vibration. The WBT bananas are probably not quite as good wrt surface area but they also lock into place. In comparison the surface area of Speakon connectors are much smaller and they are made of a brass alloy with maybe 1/3rd the conductivity of pure silver.

Subjectively, WBT silver is close as you're going to get to not using connectors IME. Speakon adds some grain, as does all brass to some degree.

The other key advantage not mentioned imho - speakon lock into their sockets so effectively.

I agree it's key in an industrial or live-sound setting but in a home? In decades I've never had an issue with conventional binding posts. EDIT: Ok, once and not with my system... someone had some super-wide foil cables that fell off a binding post but I don't think that counts. ;)
 
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DonH50

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The other key advantage not mentioned imho - speakon lock into their sockets so effectively.

I did mention positive retention... But that terminology is from my day job and not generally used in the consumer audio world, my bad (pretentious). Back when I was doing live sound (or just when we had young kids and pets in the house) it was a key factor! I like XLR connectors for their retention ability as well. And am completely over having to break an internal connection to get some super-tight RCA connector on or off my rig...

Edit: Positive retention (locking connectors) has pros and cons... The connector may not pull out if someone (or something) trips over it, but pulling something off the shelf can be worse...
 
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DonH50

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No problem, bringing up contact resistance is a good point and an issue with SC applications.

In one of our past threads this exact subject came up and I believe microstrip posted the contact resistance of WBT silver binding posts and it's VERY low. They have a ton of surface area and the sandwich spades have a viscoelastic layer than makes for better clamping as well as managing vibration. The WBT bananas are probably not quite as good wrt surface area but they also lock into place. In comparison the surface area of Speakon connectors are much smaller and they are made of a brass alloy with maybe 1/3rd the conductivity of pure silver.

Binding posts in general are usually very good when you first tighten them down. It's over time where they tend to fade IME. However, this from your post is likely a key to good performance that stays good over time: "spades have a viscoelastic layer" -- something that maintains tension and prevents (or at least greatly reduces) oxidation is critical for a connection that lasts over time. As I said, I've no experience with WBT, but it sounds like they are hitting all the right technical points.

My experience in the past with spade lugs, audio and otherwise, has been poor and I have to remember to retighten periodically unless they have some sort of tensioning mechanism so that they stay tight.

Thanks Dave,
Don
 

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