Speaker upgrade

Duke LeJeune

[Industry Expert]/Member Sponsor
Jul 22, 2013
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662
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Princeton, Texas
#81
Ok but if you are going passive I don't see any advantage SPL wise. I am looking at it from the point of view that if you were building a passive system the woofer sensitivity is going to determine what your SPL is at crossover.
At the crossover frequency, yes.

As far as system sensitivity goes, imo it depends (assuming we're talking about a passive system). If we're considering a midwoofer whose 2.83 volt sensitivity is in the 100 dB ballpark, then with a constant-directivity horn (and depending on the specifics of course), the top end of the compression driver could be the limiting factor.
 
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Robh3606

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2010
1,107
127
485
Destiny
#82
As far as system sensitivity goes, imo it depends (assuming we're talking about a passive system). If we're considering a midwoofer whose 2.83 volt sensitivity is in the 100 dB ballpark, then with a constant-directivity horn (and depending on the specifics of course), the top end of the compression driver could be the limiting factor.
Hello Duke

OK I see your point now. Agreed it certainly could be a problem. It gets to be a real balancing act at 100db and if the Compression Driver horn combo is rolling off it's makes things very difficult if not impossible to get enough energy in the last octave or so.

I would just trade about 3db of system sensitivity and even then it can be a tuff nut to pull it off. Figure the old 4435 monitor had it at the limit at 96db system sensitivity for that horn driver combo out to 16k.

Ideally you would like a rising response out there and not to many drivers offer that option. The newer ring radiators have more energy last octave but they trade off the low end response.

Ring Radiator Presentation:

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulle...gm-Drivers-2430-2415-2420&p=421194#post421194

The never ending juggling act!

Rob :)
 
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bonzo75

Member Sponsor
Feb 26, 2014
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#83
Hello Bonzo

You have not heard a CD horn that you liked?? What have you listened too??

You don't have to use DSP you can go with a passive crossover as well. With passive crosover the EQ is all attenuation so you are not driving the Compression drivers any harder in the upper octaves than you would with a conventional non CD horn.

You just trade off midband effciency using a series cap at the hinge of parametric using series or parralel notch filters or combinations to get the correct voltage curve for your target response,

Rob :)
Hi Rob, I have heard CDs only in the hORNS fp10 and fp15, and the new smaller JBL series at shows and one dealer. But when I tried to look up people with CDs they usually had DSP or lot of EQ. That put me off as I want crossover to be as simple as possible.

Keep in mind I always find horns bad till I really like them. With JMLC the issue I had was many were plastic sounding till they sound right.
 

bonzo75

Member Sponsor
Feb 26, 2014
14,986
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London
#84
Duke, which is the min phase horn used in hORNS universum? The JMLC 200T is the big one, are you referring to the one for the tweeter?
 

Duke LeJeune

[Industry Expert]/Member Sponsor
Jul 22, 2013
584
662
340
Princeton, Texas
#85
Duke, which is the min phase horn used in hORNS universum? The JMLC 200T is the big one, are you referring to the one for the tweeter?
I thought they were both Min Phase horns, but I don't remember where I got that idea from. It now looks like I was mistaken, as I can't find a source which says it uses the Min Phase horns.
 
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Duke LeJeune

[Industry Expert]/Member Sponsor
Jul 22, 2013
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Princeton, Texas
#86
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steve59

Active Member
Jan 7, 2018
236
37
35
#88
I recognize that room from the blade 2 AG pic. I was the guy that why you didn't just remove a couple bass traps and keep the 2's instead of bringing in the big blades:) Beautiful room, looks like avantgarde horns would be right at home. The speakers I'm using can touch 120 db but be waay to bland to go into that room...and they haven't been reviewed in 5 years or more.
 

caesar

Well-Known Member
May 31, 2010
3,500
242
498
#89
Well, Fremer highlighted the many positives and some negatives as he heard it, I thought it was a pretty balanced, honest review. A world away from Roy Gregory and his pseudo-Shakespeare prose posing as "informative" reviews.
Roy Gregory must be one of the worst reviewers alive. Along with Harley - when he doesn't compare. Both guys just babble. More words than Shakespeare has written in his life, but no one understands a word.

I think people can guess the song I am tapping with my fingers right now better than they can understand Gregory.

Only audio imaginationists and audio masturbators like those guys. He can say any meaningless gibberish and they imagine everything.

Gregory and Harley must be really into self abasement and self humiliation to produce work like that. Those guys are way beyond the stand naked, hug your speaker, and hold your cartridge stylus phase. What a shame for the audio fans, as desperate manufacturers seek them. there is a simple solution, though: compare gear!
 

sbnx

Well-Known Member
Mar 28, 2017
278
181
115
#90
Come on Caesar, don't hold back. Tell us what you really think.
 

morricab

Well-Known Member
Apr 25, 2014
4,592
1,159
388
Switzerland
#91
I thought they were both Min Phase horns, but I don't remember where I got that idea from. It now looks like I was mistaken, as I can't find a source which says it uses the Min Phase horns.
Did they design it or did BMS? I thought this dual diaphragm design came from BMS and JBL licesenced the tech.
 

Duke LeJeune

[Industry Expert]/Member Sponsor
Jul 22, 2013
584
662
340
Princeton, Texas
#92
Did they design it or did BMS? I thought this dual diaphragm design came from BMS and JBL licesenced the tech.
In the part you quoted, I was talking about the hORNS Universum. I think it uses Radian Beryllium diaphragm compression drivers, not JBL or BMS. I think the top Diesis model uses BMS, but I'm not sure.

JBL's "dual diaphragm" design is unique. It uses two roughly donut-shaped diaphragms, one above the other (assuming the compression driver is facing up), which "squeeze" the air in the passageway between them. That passageway takes a 90 degree bend at the donut hole (passing through the center of the upper donut) and continuing to the driver's exit.
 
#93
My system comprises of
Kef blades , pair of jl audio f113 v2 subs, jl audio cr-1 , ayre Mx-r twenty , ayre kx-r twenty, sme 30/2 with Lyra Etna lambda sl catridge , van den hul the grail se phono stage, wolf Alfa 3 sx streamer , t+a sd 3100 hv dac, cardas clear interconnects , cardas clear beyond power cords , cardas clear revelation speaker cables, niagra 5000.
I am looking for a pair of full range speakers to replace my kef blades.
I love my blades , expecting a little more dynamics .
Looking for sealed full range speakers , to play with my jl audio subs.
My short list are magico m3 and yg Acoustics sonja 2.3.
That’s the price range I am looking at .
I listen to vocal music , country , jazz, pop and rock .
Thanks everyone In advance .
Newton
Newton,
You have a very nice looking room and budget. As helpful as everyone here is, I think the best advice I could give you is to add a little bit to the budget for traveling to dealers or owners' houses who have the speakers you are considering.
I just hosted a friend who flew in to Houston from New Orleans. He was considering YG, Rockport and MBL. I actually filmed much of the demo so I'll put a link below.

I think my friend will confirm that the smartest thing he did was flying over to listen. He was totally convinced he was getting YG Sonia 2.2 a month ago, but changed his mind after direct demos. It wasn't that the YG disappointed. He actually called it "audio mecca", but he was looking for a change and there are so many other factors like personal taste that we on a message board can't help you with.

It's a lot of money, so it's important that you are totally happy. Try to listen before you buy if at all possible.


If I were to just give my two cents based on looking at your room and limited info, I think you're on the right track with getting a sealed cabinet like YG to mate with your subs if that's something currently bothering you.

However, without being in your room to know for sure, my inclination is to suggest you consider something else as well. You basically have a room without boundaries so pressurizing that space will be tough regardless of what speaker you choose.

You may want to consider MBL because they somewhat use the room to your advantage and typically sound more spacious in cavernous size rooms like yours. It would take a little finesse in setting up and there are no guarantees, but I would recommend considering it.

One thing to note...it looks like your room doubles as an entertaining and group hangout. Thus, the MBLs would provide better off axis listening to a larger range of people..even if they are standing right to the side of it.

Also, your room is an ideal candidate for a line source. They lose half as much volume as you double the distance so it will fill your space easier. It will also fill it better because they are typically tall and have a more grandiose vertical soundstage which seems ideal for your room. You also have less floor/ceiling reflections with a line source.

For my personal tastes, a line source is definitely the way to go in that room. The Wisdom Audio LS4 or the Alsyvox Botticelli would be on my shortlist. If you haven't heard a line source like that in your room or similar, I would recommend at least giving it a demo. You may fall in love with it like I have over the years.

From an aesthetic perspective, the Dynaudio Evidence Temptation would give you a similar profile to the KEF blades, but much higher performance I believe. A first order crossover in a speaker of that quality can be magic if setup right.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPt7qoWWa8yhhBRvE-rUuGhA6vbq-KsBo
 

Newtoncr

New Member
Aug 11, 2020
12
14
3
48
#94
Newton,
You have a very nice looking room and budget. As helpful as everyone here is, I think the best advice I could give you is to add a little bit to the budget for traveling to dealers or owners' houses who have the speakers you are considering.
I just hosted a friend who flew in to Houston from New Orleans. He was considering YG, Rockport and MBL. I actually filmed much of the demo so I'll put a link below.

I think my friend will confirm that the smartest thing he did was flying over to listen. He was totally convinced he was getting YG Sonia 2.2 a month ago, but changed his mind after direct demos. It wasn't that the YG disappointed. He actually called it "audio mecca", but he was looking for a change and there are so many other factors like personal taste that we on a message board can't help you with.

It's a lot of money, so it's important that you are totally happy. Try to listen before you buy if at all possible.


If I were to just give my two cents based on looking at your room and limited info, I think you're on the right track with getting a sealed cabinet like YG to mate with your subs if that's something currently bothering you.

However, without being in your room to know for sure, my inclination is to suggest you consider something else as well. You basically have a room without boundaries so pressurizing that space will be tough regardless of what speaker you choose.

You may want to consider MBL because they somewhat use the room to your advantage and typically sound more spacious in cavernous size rooms like yours. It would take a little finesse in setting up and there are no guarantees, but I would recommend considering it.

One thing to note...it looks like your room doubles as an entertaining and group hangout. Thus, the MBLs would provide better off axis listening to a larger range of people..even if they are standing right to the side of it.

Also, your room is an ideal candidate for a line source. They lose half as much volume as you double the distance so it will fill your space easier. It will also fill it better because they are typically tall and have a more grandiose vertical soundstage which seems ideal for your room. You also have less floor/ceiling reflections with a line source.

For my personal tastes, a line source is definitely the way to go in that room. The Wisdom Audio LS4 or the Alsyvox Botticelli would be on my shortlist. If you haven't heard a line source like that in your room or similar, I would recommend at least giving it a demo. You may fall in love with it like I have over the years.

From an aesthetic perspective, the Dynaudio Evidence Temptation would give you a similar profile to the KEF blades, but much higher performance I believe. A first order crossover in a speaker of that quality can be magic if setup right.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPt7qoWWa8yhhBRvE-rUuGhA6vbq-KsBo
That’s what I will be doing once the Covid situation is more stable .
 

steve59

Active Member
Jan 7, 2018
236
37
35
#95
The persona 9h because of the built in active subs and ARC eq I think could be on the list. I know I mention the persona's about everywhere, but I think they need a lot of room to the sides or heavily treated first reflection spots to sound their best. Your room is huge and almost a shame to clutter with hifi. How about multiple in wall speakers with components hidden.
 
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Newtoncr

New Member
Aug 11, 2020
12
14
3
48
#96
I decided on a pair of magico m3 to replace the blades , subs crossed over at 50 hz, will play wit it when I get them hopefully in 2 weeks . Will let everyone know the diff In sound from the blades. Thanks everyone for your input.
With regard to horns what I have learnt and heard is they are a diff beast . Totally diff presentation of music . I hope to have a valve /horn system in the future to replace my odyssey , thiel set up . So I can enjoy the diff presentations .
Thanks again to everyone
 

steve59

Active Member
Jan 7, 2018
236
37
35
#97
Did the new Magico A5 draw any interest?
 

Newtoncr

New Member
Aug 11, 2020
12
14
3
48
#98
Would like some advice on mpods for the magico m3 which I have purchased. How much of a difference do they make and can anyone help me get a good deal on them . Thanks
 

dcathro

Well-Known Member
Sep 16, 2016
94
60
83
Melbourne, Australia
#99
Good Luck with your new speakers!

Looking forward to your impressions.
 

Tango

VIP/Donor
Mar 12, 2017
3,999
3,771
495
Bangkok
Would like some advice on mpods for the magico m3 which I have purchased. How much of a difference do they make and can anyone help me get a good deal on them . Thanks
Not to be a party crasher but it is from the experience spending enough money to buy a 911Turbo on unnecessary gears and hopefully second thought people who itch to spend money on these accessories. Everything changes sound to some extent when you stick it into the system. Ask yourself first what is it specifically you are looking to gain in your system. Is that thing lacking in your system. If your answer is yes then pursue to find a solution that might fulfill that goal. Don't just add something to increase something when you already have enough of that in your system. Footers will alter your sound some way. If you pay a very high price for it and have heard comments from others that it is good, you likely will accept the sound as improvement when it could actually be excessive. Very expensive accessories are not worth buying imo. Better put you time and resource in finding gear that is excellent without adding. But if it is something like you want to buy new wheels for your Ferrari, then it is fun to spend money on these things. The M3 is already excellent by itself imo.

sincerely,
Tang
 

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