Speakers for Kondo Ongaku... Please Help

[flez007]

Yes I did but zero information to be had. Do you have a suggestion? Back in 2001 I heard the wooo hahhh and all the rave about Zingali from my local AD, never owned it though. Please tell me more about Zingali.

Nothing except that many AN owners tend to like the sinergy of them.

 

[tima]

Here's my take on the US & horns. Americans' first introduction to specialty, performance-centered products are cars. It's a car/truck culture and it's standard fare for children (stereotypically boys) to spend a lot of time fantasizing about the vehicles they'll eventually own. Once people do get their first vehicle, many start to get into audio, but the choices are still controlled by the US car culture because that's where high school and college kids are putting their audio dollars. Both of those industries (in America) have a huge focus on power and muscle over delicate finesse.

When everyone grows up on kilowatt amplifiers and trunks full of subwoofers, it's a huge paradigm shift to talk about 2w amplifiers once you've finally got a house to put a system in. Not only do you have to be introduced to an entirely new way to think about sound reproduction, but you also have to accept that everything you were taught when putting in that new car stereo that you absolutely loved was wrong.

It's true, most Americans don't drive scooters. But you started with "my take on the US & horns" and proceeded to talk about amplifier power. Since often one's choice of speaker dictates amplifier requirements (although not in Uwlik's case) how does what you've said tell us your take on the US & horns - which I'd like to hear?

 

[christoph]

I’m in. Would go well with my tattoos... just sayin.

Good thing I didn't start my audio journey with an "NAD" and "Mission" tattoo some 37 years ago

 

[the sound of Tao]

Good thing I didn't start my audio journey with an "NAD" and "Mission" tattoo some 37 years ago

Lol, that’s why they have laser treatments... you can hardly see my Technics CD perfect forever tattoo

 

[christoph]

When everyone grows up on kilowatt amplifiers and trunks full of subwoofers, it's a huge paradigm shift to talk about 2w amplifiers once you've finally got a house to put a system in. Not only do you have to be introduced to an entirely new way to think about sound reproduction, but you also have to accept that everything you were taught when putting in that new car stereo that you absolutely loved was wrong.

It takes a set of good ears, willingness to hear and compare different stuff, an open mind and maybe in the end a set of big balls to admit that the audio path so far was maybe not the best one

 

[the sound of Tao]

P

Please don’t say that... LOL! The title of the thread is “what speaker for my Ongaku”, not “what amp for my speaker”..... That thought has crossed my mind but I just spent 150K++ and definitely won’t be selling my less than 1 month old Ongaku....it’s my holy grail amp (mentally) since long ago and finally I have it so I won’t be selling it. I’d rather go conservative and just buy AN-E or Devore than selling my Kondo but that wasn’t my target. I wanted something different (or Renegade if you prefer) to pair with my Kondo. Be it single driver, field coil, horns, OB or planar. Right now I am focusing on horns because horns has intrigued me since long and I REALLY want something different. I started my Audio hobby since 1994 with my HK Citation II and I never own long term any other speakers but box speakers, I just want something different.

Stick with your instincts Uwiik, you have obvious capacity to explore some fabulous options through time. Not trying to destroy your relationship but perhaps some time...

Also hoping that the current flooding in Indonesia and Timor Leste is not a part of your immediate world. This hobby can be a great retreat. Great music is always rich and amazing, we are very lucky souls.

 

[tima]

It takes a set of good ears, willingness to hear and compare different stuff, an open mind and maybe in the end a set of big balls to admit that the audio path so far was maybe not the best one

I don't know if it is so much the willingness to say you're wrong, or a new found dissatisfaction, as it is a process of discovery. People seem to change gear all the time trying this or that. And unlike some I don't believe there is a single path to enjoying music. Then again, look at how many people threw away their away record collections for the enticements of Philps and Sony (or Norio Ohga and von Karajan) and then who came back - perhaps that is mistake admitting. But Sony and Philips did make it easy to switch.

I agree with bonzo that it is also a matter of exposure - like you say a willingness to hear and compare. But if the high-end is to prosper then hearing and comparing should not be made difficult - it should be made easier, especially if a manufacturer believes in their product. There are manufacturers who make it easy to hear, to find, and thus to compare - manufacturers who actually want my interest and my business. Rhapsody Bob says America will never be a place for horns (or some toned down version of that) - and we can accept a 'things will never change perspective' based on past experience and indeed things will never change. But people are willing to hear and compare different stuff. Hopefully we will see the return of audio shows but those are only a starting point. sorry I'm ranting.

 

[christoph]

I don't know if it is so much the willingness to say you're wrong, or a new found dissatisfaction, as it is a process of discovery. People seem to change gear all the time trying this or that. And unlike some I don't believe there is a single path to enjoying music. Then again, look at how many people threw away their away record collections for the enticements of Philps and Sony (or Norio Ohga and von Karajan) and then who came back - perhaps that is mistake admitting. But Sony and Philips did make it easy to switch.

I don't say there is a single correct way to enjoy music, far from it

I say one needs to be open and compare and try different stuff, not only go up the price ladder within the brands one already owns/knows

There is no perfect system for all different music genres and listening preferences.
I love to have different systems with different topologies like Horns and Dipole Stats (with their matching/suitable amplification)

 

[Rhapsody]

Invitation accepted. I definitely have to go to Vancouver when rule allows, it’s a must, not a question. Thanks so much for the kind offer!! BTW, if I give you commitment to buy from you if I like the sound, would you try to provide Ongaku for audition? Off course I’ll pay shipping both way.

I will jump in for Bob, it is possible to send an Ongaku out to Bob for your audition. I own two Ongakus at this moment, and could possibly send one out to Bob for you to hear with the Diesis Roma. Although a lot depends on the timing and how many Ongakus I will have in my possession at that time.

If you are still interested as time passes and you make your way to VC then keep in touch with Bob in Portland.

 

[tima]

I don't say there is a single correct way to enjoy music, far from it

I say one needs to be open and compare and try different stuff, not only go up the price ladder within the brands one already owns/knows

There is no perfect system for all different music genres and listening preferences.
I love to have different systems with different topologies like Horns and Dipole Stats (with their matching/suitable amplification)

Copy that. You certainly have a very nice array of gear.

 

[christoph]

Copy that. You certainly have a very nice array of gear.

Thanks for your kind words.
Your system must sound awesome.
Do you have a system thread?
I would like to ask you about your Lamm hybrids compared to other amps you tried...
But better not in this thread

Sorry for being OT

 

[bonzo75]

You're on a very slippery path with that sort of remark and I discourage you from following it.

Otherwise the US market generally does not fear competition. If as Graham suggests the horn business is a niche market with a product having enough foibles that it will remain such, then so be it. Don't expect many hobbyists will look to create a market if manufacturers are not willing to bet on themselves. You certainly have no skin in the game.

No one is expecting to. I think you are confusing marketing and sonics. I have zero interest in Coke, Pepsi, and such sugared water branded equivalents in audio. American institutions are great at marketing.

 

[iaxel]

I can't see how any classical and jazz fan won't shift over if he hears a few good horns. It is inevitable.

Probably not inevitable.
Not wanting to hijack this thread, I would say I have heard horns, and even owned a pair for a few years. And, like everything in life (and audio), there are pros and cons. Whenever I hear horns and return to "box" speakers, I miss things and vice-versa.
Also, well-designed horns require a lot of space, while box speakers can work well in moderate space requirements.
BTW, I listen mostly to classical music.

 

[bonzo75]

Probably not inevitable.
Not wanting to hijack this thread, I would say I have heard horns, and even owned a pair for a few years. And, like everything in life (and audio), there are pros and cons. Whenever I hear horns and return to "box" speakers, I miss things and vice-versa.
Also, well-designed horns require a lot of space, while box speakers can work well in moderate space requirements.
BTW, I listen mostly to classical music.

Which horns did you own, like duos?

 

[iaxel]

Which horns did you own, like duos?

Yes, AG Dou. And I am very familiar with their limitations.
But I have heard others as well.

 

[Bobvin]

I would say a lot of Americans have never even heard or seen a horn system. Besides Klipsh Kornerhorns back in the 70s, I had no idea about horns until about 10 years ago. Only at RMAF did I hear some AvantGarde. Its a bit of a cycle, no exposure yields no stores carrying a product yields no exposure. Plus little advertising, only in trade rags, and with no exposure the advertisements get looked over.

Thanks to Bob.east @ Rhapsody for having those Dieses playing when I visited a couple years back. Result was my understanding of so many more possibilities in this hobby. (Much to my wife’s dismay.)

 

[bonzo75]

Yes, AG Dou. And I am very familiar with their limitations.
But I have heard others as well.

I will take most cones including Wilson and Magico over AG duo. I don't consider them much of a horn just because they have a horn like no mid. Their bass issue is much worse than any cone.

The point I want to make is these are not representative of what I am referring to by the "horns". There are too many bad horns, like awful.

 

[cal3713]

It's true, most Americans don't drive scooters. But you started with "my take on the US & horns" and proceeded to talk about amplifier power. Since often one's choice of speaker dictates amplifier requirements (although not in Uwlik's case) how does what you've said tell us your take on the US & horns - which I'd like to hear?

Ha! Good catch... and poor argumentation. Thanks for calling it out.

While it's certainly true that horns are amplifier freeing, rather than constraining, I think the car audio industry trains people to select inefficient speakers that require high power amplifiers.

 

[marslo]

Ked,
Duos are known for their beautiful midrange due to the fact that there is no crossover at all between 170 and 2200 Hz, so no manipulation of the signal and no distortion.
This is a matter af matching them with the right amp and you are done.
So severe critics like yours are rather a matter of personal bias and imho far from being objective Ked.
We may discuss bass integration , drivers quality and highs but among commercial horns Duos have very good price/ quality relation.
I put Duo Mezzo XD over Unis III and I am not alone.
Of course I respect people preferences and will not insist on changing Unis III for Mezzo , I could be happy with Universum and with Zingali, Acapellas and Cessaro as well. There is no one best speaker for all of us.

 

[LL21]

I would say a lot of Americans have never even heard or seen a horn system. Besides Klipsh Kornerhorns back in the 70s, I had no idea about horns until about 10 years ago. Only at RMAF did I hear some AvantGarde. Its a bit of a cycle, no exposure yields no stores carrying a product yields no exposure. Plus little advertising, only in trade rags, and with no exposure the advertisements get looked over.

Thanks to Bob.east @ Rhapsody for having those Dieses playing when I visited a couple years back. Result was my understanding of so many more possibilities in this hobby. (Much to my wife’s dismay.)

For my part, this describes me. I have since heard Cessaro Betas with horn subs at AE in Hong Kong, Cessaro Liszt (suspect not ideally setup), Avantgarde Duos?, another set in Netherlands which I have to go back to my notes to remember. Not sure I ever got a proper taste of horns, but I remain intrigued by the larger SOTA horn setups. That said, they are all universally too big for us to consider seriously in terms of volumetric space. I have grown to appreciate further the Wilson big X designs for their footprint/scale performance.