Streamer to kill the big boys for under $250

[christoph]

Hi Mike

Thank you for the link to the Swiss dealer carrying the NUC.

I can't open the PDF you linked in the last posting. I'm not a member of that forum...

 

[Blizzard]

Hi Mike

Thank you for the link to the Swiss dealer carrying the NUC.

I can't open the PDF you linked in the last posting. I'm not a member of that forum...

Hi Christoph,

You might have to signup then because that's where the PDF is hosted.

 

[Blizzard]

Here's the instructions without having to sign up for a Diyaudio account:

 

[Geardaddy]

thanks geardaddy for sharing your hard earned wisdom on some of the issues surounding living with mental illness

all hail the voice of expirence

Audiophilia is a mental illness by definition. Its all a matter of how you like to roll. Some enjoy manic, mental ping pong on the forums, and if that's you, have at it.....

 

[Geardaddy]

Hi guys,

I just realized that I really should have been considering the fact that this unit does have other use applications other than just a fixture on your high end audio rack. It does have a Mini PCI-E slot on the board. And in that slot you could always install a very fast dual band AC wifi card.


http://www.amazon.com/Bplus-7260-HM...TF8&qid=1452277138&sr=1-3&keywords=intel+7260

View attachment 24819

I have done it before and works great. However it does add noise. So where you would use it is in portable locations that you don't want to run wires to. It still sounds excellent, after all most of the mainstream several thousand dollar streamers have the same wifi cards built in them already. So at worst, it would just take the noise levels up to where they are at. It's super long range too as it's AC. Antenna is already built into the case and ready to go.

So just think, out in the backyard or something. You could stream Roon/Tidal, even upsample to DSD, wirelessly, and control with the iPad. Or anywhere for that matter. You will have the full music collection off your main server, as well as Tidal, wherever you plunk it down. Takes a second to switch zones on the Roon app. And theres no limit to the amount of zones. Also 1 image is good for as many zones as you want. You don't need to buy another copy for each unit. It would seem crazy if you were paying $1-$5K per unit, and getting 1 for each room. But when they are this cheap, you can put one in every room for less than the price of most commercial unit's of equal quality.

So something to consider anyways. No need for all the fancy upgrades either if it's just out by the campfire in the back yard or something. Around the hot tub.

Blizz, the wired thing is the one weakness of your paradigm. I have been an early adopter of WiFi audio and loves it convenience. It would be great to have a NAA (like Auralic) that effectively buffered and negated any sonic shortcomings. My house is not currently wired for wholehouse ethernet as you know and its a pain.....

 

[Blizzard]

Blizz, the wired thing is the one weakness of your paradigm. I have been an early adopter of WiFi audio and loves it convenience. It would be great to have a NAA (like Auralic) that effectively buffered and negated any sonic shortcomings. My house is not currently wired for wholehouse ethernet as you know and its a pain.....

But the wired thing is one of the reasons why it sounds better. Pop the wifi card in it if you want it to sound like the Aries, but with the advantages of HQplayer compatibility. My objective was to get the best sound, which was why I didn't mention the wifi off the bat. I don't care what the commercial vendors charge for their streamers, the wifi cards cause the same amount of noise in them, as this unit.

There you go it's just a noisy wifi card just like I recommended as an option. Only difference it's a generic Chinese model that's much slower, rather than genuine Intel. It's also full sized mPCI-e rather than half sized like the much faster Intel I recommended. So probably even noisier.

https://wikidevi.com/files/datasheets/compex/WLE350NX_DSv1.0.7.pdf

 

[Geardaddy]

But the wired thing is one of the reasons why it sounds better. Pop the wifi card in it if you want it to sound like the Aries, but with the advantages of HQplayer compatibility. My objective was to get the best sound, which was why I didn't mention the wifi off the bat. I don't care what the commercial vendors charge for their streamers, the wifi cards cause the same amount of noise in them, as this unit.

There you go it's just a noisy wifi card just like I recommended as an option. Only difference it's a generic Chinese model that's much slower, rather than genuine Intel. It's also full sized mPCI-e rather than half sized like the much faster Intel I recommended. So probably even noisier.

https://wikidevi.com/files/datasheets/compex/WLE350NX_DSv1.0.7.pdf
View attachment 25009

I get that. The crux of the matter is how to thwart said "noise." I know Steve Nugent has argued that in terms of jitter, Ethernet and WiFi are interchangeable mediums in terms of performance: http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/manufacture/0509/

 

[Blizzard]

I get that. The crux of the matter is how to thwart said "noise." I know Steve Nugent has argued that in terms of jitter, Ethernet and WiFi are interchangeable mediums in terms of performance: http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/manufacture/0509/

Yes but jitter doesn't matter anyways until after the clocks in the USB interface of the DAC. It's the noise that's the issue. Not only that the card gobbles power from the system putting extra strain on the voltage regulators that power everything else, making them noisier as well.

Try both ways and if you can't hear a difference, then perfect, go with the wifi.

Here's what he said, and I agree with him 100%. If you read this thread over as well as my interface thread you will see I've said the pretty much same things many times.


"Networked audio (Ethernet), both wired and Wi-Fi is a unique case. Because the data is transmitted in packets with flow-control and re-try for errors with buffering at the end-point device, it is not as much of a real-time transfer as USB, S/PDIF or FireWire. Networking also avoids the use of the audio stack of the computer audio system since it treats all data essentially the same. Because of the packet-transfer protocol of Ethernet and data buffering at the end-point, the jitter of the clock in the computer is a non-issue. The only clock that is important is the one in the end-point device. Examples of end-point devices are: Squeezebox, Duet and Sonos. This would seem to be the ideal situation, which it certainly is. The only problem that can occur is overloading the network with traffic or Wi-Fi interference, which may cause occasional dropouts. The problem for audiophiles is that the majority of these devices were designed with high-volume manufacturing and low-cost as requirements, with performance taking a lower priority. As a result, the jitter from these devices is higher than it could be. It should be the lowest of all the audio source devices available."


By the "endpoint", he's not talking about a streamer like this unit. This article was written 7 years ago before anyone was using streamers like this. The squeezebox, Duet, and Sonos, connect to the DAC via SPDIF, so the clocks in those unit's are critical for the sound. They are the actual "endpoint" and are doing critical audio clocking that matters. With a streamer, we are using both Ethernet, and USB. However it's not until the signal gets to the USB interface inside the DAC, where the important clocking takes place. That is the true "endpoint" in this scenario.

 

[Geardaddy]

Interestingly, one first WiFi audio source was a highly modded Airport Express out of France with a master clock, etc. It was very, very good and I regret selling it....

 

[Blizzard]

Interestingly, one first WiFi audio source was a highly modded Airport Express out of France with a master clock, etc. It was very, very good and I regret selling it....

Well I can verify the wifi works great in this unit with the Intel 7260 card. That's actually what I used at first in this streamer back when I had Windows embedded installed on it. But then I tried copper Ethernet and the sound improved quite a bit. Then as documented on this thread, the fiber took things to yet another level. Personally I would just buy a dedicated server and stick it somewhere in your listening room if the cable routing is an issue. Put it in a closet or something, and run fiber to the streamer. You have a really good system, I'm not sure why you would want to sacrifice the sound. Your system is only as good as the weakest link.

I can sell you my Intel 7260 wifi card if you want. I'm no longer using it.

 

[Geardaddy]

That is not a bad idea to just stick the server in the room....but I have my It guy coming by soon and I will get his two cents on logistics. Not easy....

 

[Blizzard]

The Superstream Companion ultra low noise power supply.

 

[Geardaddy]

The Superstream Companion ultra low noise power supply.

View attachment 25059View attachment 25060View attachment 25061View attachment 25062

Nicely done.....

 

[Germanboxers]

Nice PS, Mike!

I got my NUC and fiber optic isolation setup complete. Is there any way I can send native DSD through it to my Lampizator Golden Gate DAC? I send DoP128, but native does not work. I thought someone mentioned that the Linux was able to send native now?

Have only listened this morning so far, but having both NUC and fiber optic powered by LiFeO batteries produces sound quality comparable to my capsv3Zuma WS2012 in core with AO acting as an NAA. Very nice lower cost alternative! If it could pass native DSD at 11MHz it may surpass the WS2012 NAA?!

 

[Blizzard]

Nice PS, Mike!

I got my NUC and fiber optic isolation setup complete. Is there any way I can send native DSD through it to my Lampizator Golden Gate DAC? I send DoP128, but native does not work. I thought someone mentioned that the Linux was able to send native now?

Have only listened this morning so far, but having both NUC and fiber optic powered by LiFeO batteries produces sound quality comparable to my capsv3Zuma WS2012 in core with AO acting as an NAA. Very nice lower cost alternative! If it could pass native DSD at 11MHz it may surpass the WS2012 NAA?!

Thanks! I'm glad you like it. Still waiting for the patch to enable the native DSD on the Amanero. I'll post it here once ready. Did you compare it to just using the caps as server and connecting direct?

 

[Germanboxers]

Thanks! I'm glad you like it. Still waiting for the patch to enable the native DSD on the Amanero. I'll post it here once ready. Did you compare it to just using the caps as server and connecting direct?

Not directly...but by transititive property, it is certainly better. I compared WS2012 in core with AO directly to DAC with running WS2012 in core with AO running as an NAA and running NAA was definitely better...more transparent, more natural revealing of subtle details, and surprisingly bass was more articulate too. All setups were via HQPlayer of course.

Really look forward to being able to run native DSD for the ultimate test. DoP via a low powered Linux NAA seems to be the equal (possibly better) of WS2012 in native, so definitely positive potential for further improvement. Even if equal, I may just sell my caps/WS2012 computer to someone that isn't able to run an NAA setup for some reason.

Now I just need to be confident Roon has progressed to the point where integration issues don't peeve me off too much so I can take that plunge.

BTW...you built that PS yourself I assume? Do you use it just for the NUC?

 

[Folsom]

Why does it have a power out Neutron PowerCon instead of in? or is the tiny cable the power in?

 

[Blizzard]

Why does it have a power out Neutron PowerCon instead of in? or is the tiny cable the power in?

It's the other way around. The AC powercon input is for an AC powercon connection. The DC barrel connector is for DC output.

 

[Blizzard]

Hi Guys,

An excellent switch option has been brought to my attention. It's a gigabit switch that has 16 ports as well as dual SFP fiber ports for only $107. With this switch you would only need 1 FMC on the streamer end. However it's not wireless, so you would still need a wireless router in the system if you want to run the Roon iPad app. Most modems that are provided by your internet server provider nowadays have wireless connectivity built in them anyways. That can be used to connect the iPad, or laptop for remote GUI.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...rue&ref_=ox_sc_sfl_title_9&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER

 

[Geardaddy]

Not directly...but by transititive property, it is certainly better. I compared WS2012 in core with AO directly to DAC with running WS2012 in core with AO running as an NAA and running NAA was definitely better...more transparent, more natural revealing of subtle details, and surprisingly bass was more articulate too. All setups were via HQPlayer of course.

Really look forward to being able to run native DSD for the ultimate test. DoP via a low powered Linux NAA seems to be the equal (possibly better) of WS2012 in native, so definitely positive potential for further improvement. Even if equal, I may just sell my caps/WS2012 computer to someone that isn't able to run an NAA setup for some reason.

Now I just need to be confident Roon has progressed to the point where integration issues don't peeve me off too much so I can take that plunge.

BTW...you built that PS yourself I assume? Do you use it just for the NUC?

What specific Roon integration issues? Was this based on recent experience? BTW, I ordered a PS from Mike and its on route. I will let everyone know how it shakes out.