Symphonic Line
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Does anyone have experience with the RG7 reference or reference edition? There is a fair amount of comment regarding the Kraft 250 or 300 but other than a few from @bonzo75 regarding the RG7, there is nothing of the reference or edition models. Specifically I would be interested in the comment on the Symphonic Line RG7 reference edition "Amazing three dimensional soundstage".
I have listened to the regular RG7 Mk1-2 and it was fantastic. At some point the line became too solid statish sounding , but with the MK4 itiration according to Klaus Bunge-the importer, their "magic" has returned. Now there is Mk5 model, should be quite good as well. I also listened extensively in various systems to the RG 4 monoblocks, which I would take over the "regular" RG7 stereo, but your mileage may vary as they say.... Within the last 25 years that I ve used audio forums & clubs I have never met anyone online or in real life who owns these "special versions" of the RG-7... If you are in the USA, Joshua at savantaudio.com in Princeton, NJ has set up quite of a few of those systems using SL amps for my friends, so may be he ll give you a proper guidance as what you need, as will Rolf Gemein if you get in touch.....
Thank you @AudioLibertarian for sharing your experience and for the pointers. I'm not in the US but will contact Joshua at your suggestion to see what I can learn.
Years ago I actually had a RG7 driving first Audio Physic Avanti speakers, then Genesis Vs. I don;t remember which iteration it was, probably 2 oe 3. Anyway it was a jewel of a device, compact, powerful and stable, capable of driving anything (within reason). As I remember it, the sound was on the warm side of neutral, detailed, and reproduced dynamics very well.
i have a bit of a conundrum i thought you guys might be able to offer advice on. i'm loving the sound of my kraft 300mk3 stereo - i want to say its 1.5 years old now.
due to a potential move that's up in the air, i don't want to upgrade speakers but my new taiko usb has been revolutionary in my system and given me the audio itch again. i have a new full loom of cable coming (not going to disclose manufacturer just yet as i think it will be fun to keep the brand secret and post on my taiko thread about changes i hear and then later reveal the manufacturer - just a thought).
so i thought maybe i could get another amp to have in the rotation and here's where i'm stuck with the following options (no particular order):
1. call klaus and see how we can mono-fi this kraft/if there is an upgrade route. probably the least appealing option due to hassle of potential shipping or, if its easy to buy another and run it bridged, then there is the issue of space. probably a bit too much amp for my room
2. soulution 710 to pair with my 721 pre. synergy could be worth exploring here. the taiko and rockna together would probably counter some of the soulution's tendency to be ruthless. this is the cheapest option of the bunch and a 7 series stack may not be everyone's flavor but it's top tier gear.
3. ch a1 monos. small, never owned monos, could be a nice alternative to the more muscley kraft sound. very beautiful and delicate but maybe too delicate for my musical choice. i heard an msb select 2 with ch l1+x1 and m1.1 with stenheim alumine 3 (they second version). the ch was very beautiful and airy but overall the demo was lackluster. i don't blame the ch for that but it's giving me pause.
the kraft is going nowhere though
due to a potential move that's up in the air, i don't want to upgrade speakers but my new taiko usb has been revolutionary in my system and given me the audio itch again. i have a new full loom of cable coming (not going to disclose manufacturer just yet as i think it will be fun to keep the brand secret and post on my taiko thread about changes i hear and then later reveal the manufacturer - just a thought).
so i thought maybe i could get another amp to have in the rotation and here's where i'm stuck with the following options (no particular order):
1. call klaus and see how we can mono-fi this kraft/if there is an upgrade route. probably the least appealing option due to hassle of potential shipping or, if its easy to buy another and run it bridged, then there is the issue of space. probably a bit too much amp for my room
2. soulution 710 to pair with my 721 pre. synergy could be worth exploring here. the taiko and rockna together would probably counter some of the soulution's tendency to be ruthless. this is the cheapest option of the bunch and a 7 series stack may not be everyone's flavor but it's top tier gear.
3. ch a1 monos. small, never owned monos, could be a nice alternative to the more muscley kraft sound. very beautiful and delicate but maybe too delicate for my musical choice. i heard an msb select 2 with ch l1+x1 and m1.1 with stenheim alumine 3 (they second version). the ch was very beautiful and airy but overall the demo was lackluster. i don't blame the ch for that but it's giving me pause.
the kraft is going nowhere though
The amps you ve listed and itching to try would be the "side" move as they say....Just a different flavor, not necessarily "better" , if not worse , but if you are able to get a demo and have the dough, who are we to arguei have a bit of a conundrum i thought you guys might be able to offer advice on. i'm loving the sound of my kraft 300mk3 stereo - i want to say its 1.5 years old now.
due to a potential move that's up in the air, i don't want to upgrade speakers but my new taiko usb has been revolutionary in my system and given me the audio itch again. i have a new full loom of cable coming (not going to disclose manufacturer just yet as i think it will be fun to keep the brand secret and post on my taiko thread about changes i hear and then later reveal the manufacturer - just a thought).
so i thought maybe i could get another amp to have in the rotation and here's where i'm stuck with the following options (no particular order):
1. call klaus and see how we can mono-fi this kraft/if there is an upgrade route. probably the least appealing option due to hassle of potential shipping or, if its easy to buy another and run it bridged, then there is the issue of space. probably a bit too much amp for my room
2. soulution 710 to pair with my 721 pre. synergy could be worth exploring here. the taiko and rockna together would probably counter some of the soulution's tendency to be ruthless. this is the cheapest option of the bunch and a 7 series stack may not be everyone's flavor but it's top tier gear.
3. ch a1 monos. small, never owned monos, could be a nice alternative to the more muscley kraft sound. very beautiful and delicate but maybe too delicate for my musical choice. i heard an msb select 2 with ch l1+x1 and m1.1 with stenheim alumine 3 (they second version). the ch was very beautiful and airy but overall the demo was lackluster. i don't blame the ch for that but it's giving me pause.
the kraft is going nowhere though
....Might also try the Pilium brand (its importer spends more time on these pages than all other hi end dealers combined, so Im sure he ll accommodate your request). While at it, give FM Accoustics a shot , the 711mk3 or 411 mk3 are great sounding units I have to say, IMHO on a higher level than most of these amps listed here, alas these are in 65 $ grand range, (and have their own idiosyncrasies, ala NAIM) but again if you ve gotta dough...I would also try the Goldmund Telos 280 stereo amp, for a very different flavor kind of sound, given that you are in NYC (I think), the Audio Arts store will be glad to do a demo (and naturally will attempt to upsell to a coarser sounding Next Gen monoblocks of course, hehe). I would also give the Mathew JAmes Encore Monos a try (if the company is still in business, as I have not been able to to get in touch with them lately) and Viola Audio Labs line of amps.... Please keep us posted if you would .
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Hi - I second this advice esp regarding the FMA -- I have a Kraft as well and had the small FMA monos for a while. The sound is very similar but the FMA sounded even punchier (if that is at all possible
).The Goldmund is all about wide bandwidth (as are the Kraft & the FMA) wqith somewhat more pronounced high frequencies & more neutral sounding. Living in the US, I would swap Goldmund with Spectral, similar concept, less expensive.
The FMA preamps are stellar, IMO better than SL's standard offerings (I had them all). OTOH, I find SL amplification top notch, so as Viola noted above, different manufacturers may result in sonic differences -- but I wouldn't really expect "better".
Dartzeel seemed to offer more clarity than my Kraft -- but when we tried them both on a friend's pair of (refurbished) Wilson W+Puppy, there was wasn't enough of a decisive differential to choose one way or another.
This is all about having some fun, so why not try another pre?
Thanks for the advice guys. Firstly, I really appreciate the comments that the 710 or A1's would be a side grade...that was my nagging feeling, glad to get a bit of confirmation. Of course, it's best to listen to it and judge for yourself but that's not really an option here.
I've heard FMA at audioarts (you called it right, i'm a new yorker) and it was great. recently there was a 611x for sale at a very reasonable price but I opted against it because Gideon @audioarts many years ago told me that FMA is better as a system i.e. pre+power and that the phase angles in my speaker may be problematic for the at least the smaller FMA's.
I've seen the pilium @Rhapsody's place and I believe I've heard the integrated or the pre in a chain there but never the monos or stereo amp. it's beautiful stuff but way too big for my space.
I really like changing around preamps and have found that they offer more sonic changes than amps (generalized statement but bear with me). I found the FMA in the past to have a bit more of a sameness but it's hard to say since I haven't tried in my system. I think the soulution 721 is a very very tough pre to beat. To my ears it does everything right and much better than most. I was considering an SL pre for a while but one of the issues is that I am digital only so I deff have a bit of hesitation spending on another top notch pre.
I'll hold off to see what the cables do - all I can say is the sound is sublime currently and I have relatively cheap cables: wireworld oasis and eclipse series. Hell the kraft are running on old stock pc power chords I had lying around because the groenenberg that was shipped with it had the eu plugs for some reason. Probably a mix up at the factory. NBD, will be excited to see wha some good power chords will do for it.
I keep coming back to the thought that I should change nothing in the rig until I hear the new cables and ideally just sit tight until I can spring for the new speakers. The budget is there, it's a logistics problem at the moment. Likely, the speaker will offer the biggest leap forward - hard to believe as I think the s5mk2's are still very very competitive in today's market but I could probably get more of everything by going up the line or to a big wilson (alexx v's have caught my eye) or yg sonja or divin marquis.
I've heard FMA at audioarts (you called it right, i'm a new yorker) and it was great. recently there was a 611x for sale at a very reasonable price but I opted against it because Gideon @audioarts many years ago told me that FMA is better as a system i.e. pre+power and that the phase angles in my speaker may be problematic for the at least the smaller FMA's.
I've seen the pilium @Rhapsody's place and I believe I've heard the integrated or the pre in a chain there but never the monos or stereo amp. it's beautiful stuff but way too big for my space.
I really like changing around preamps and have found that they offer more sonic changes than amps (generalized statement but bear with me). I found the FMA in the past to have a bit more of a sameness but it's hard to say since I haven't tried in my system. I think the soulution 721 is a very very tough pre to beat. To my ears it does everything right and much better than most. I was considering an SL pre for a while but one of the issues is that I am digital only so I deff have a bit of hesitation spending on another top notch pre.
I'll hold off to see what the cables do - all I can say is the sound is sublime currently and I have relatively cheap cables: wireworld oasis and eclipse series. Hell the kraft are running on old stock pc power chords I had lying around because the groenenberg that was shipped with it had the eu plugs for some reason. Probably a mix up at the factory. NBD, will be excited to see wha some good power chords will do for it.
I keep coming back to the thought that I should change nothing in the rig until I hear the new cables and ideally just sit tight until I can spring for the new speakers. The budget is there, it's a logistics problem at the moment. Likely, the speaker will offer the biggest leap forward - hard to believe as I think the s5mk2's are still very very competitive in today's market but I could probably get more of everything by going up the line or to a big wilson (alexx v's have caught my eye) or yg sonja or divin marquis.
Hi Skanda, my first question is what is your objective? Do you want an audiophile - vocabulary laden sound? (perfect pinpoint imaging on the soundstage? a lot of "fake" audiophile detail? Focus on recording artifacts?)
I have heard most of the top brands of SS gear. And had many of them in my systems... If you want to sit back and enjoy the music, pretty much nothing is going to beat Symphonic Line... Gryphon is good also, but not quite there with Symphonic Line... Some of the swiss stuff brought up above may do that , but it's overpriced.
So do you want to analyze the music as it's playing OR do you want an emotionally engaging sound so you can listen for hours and get into the music? Answer to this question will guide you.
I have heard most of the top brands of SS gear. And had many of them in my systems... If you want to sit back and enjoy the music, pretty much nothing is going to beat Symphonic Line... Gryphon is good also, but not quite there with Symphonic Line... Some of the swiss stuff brought up above may do that , but it's overpriced.
So do you want to analyze the music as it's playing OR do you want an emotionally engaging sound so you can listen for hours and get into the music? Answer to this question will guide you.
great question @caesar and, if you recall, i've mentioned to you that your posts on symphonic line are why i chose to take the leap when the opportuntiy was there to purchase a new kraft.
i am extremely satisfied with the sound. even without these new cables on the way i could live happily with this sound forever. however, this is also my favorite hobby so i like to experiement and push limits. i thought i was hearing it all until i got this taiko usb card and found that somehow there was so much more to be heard. this has inspired me a bit to push the system even further - that's basically it. i can't really even quantify what that would be:
1. more resolution maybe? pros: i love picking up on all the little details cons: i don't want my music to be butchered or lose any of that beautiful organic quality it currently has (the kraft and taiko synergize beautifully in terms of tone, texture, and what they do with soundstage sizing on all dimensions)
2. more dynamic? pros: it's a fun sound. i was stunned by how well th chronosonic xvx (just a fun listen, out of my budget and would not fit in my room) did on hip hop. in fact i thought it was okay on most other genres but it had this bouncy sound compared to the more refined magicos. maybe the alexx v could deliver cons: could get boring after some time
3. i've looked at CAT before especially since the founder is also a fan of symphonic line. too many tubes and too much hassle. i run all solid state now and every now and then i'll see a great deal on arc (used to have one) and vac and get an itch to go down that road again but ultimately i pass.
4. upgrade my dac? to what end though. the emm da2 and dcs would offer more resolution and some bigger staging. msb is tonally similar to my rockna but i can't afford a select 2 nor do i want to.
5. i've heard the sonja's are more dynamic than magicos. dynamics help bring life to music...that said, i'm not sure how much dynamics is left to squeeze out. i was listening to mahler this morning and it was life like and stunning. hip hop, pop, and electronic are pretty low on dynamics in comparison so not sure i'm leaving much on the table.
i really do feel as though i've achieved great sound but for many of us in the hobby trying new gear is part of the fun. it helps us understand our music in different ways. i appreciate everyone letting me rant here and offering suggestions
i could save a ton of money by doing nothing lol - always a decent choice
i am extremely satisfied with the sound. even without these new cables on the way i could live happily with this sound forever. however, this is also my favorite hobby so i like to experiement and push limits. i thought i was hearing it all until i got this taiko usb card and found that somehow there was so much more to be heard. this has inspired me a bit to push the system even further - that's basically it. i can't really even quantify what that would be:
1. more resolution maybe? pros: i love picking up on all the little details cons: i don't want my music to be butchered or lose any of that beautiful organic quality it currently has (the kraft and taiko synergize beautifully in terms of tone, texture, and what they do with soundstage sizing on all dimensions)
2. more dynamic? pros: it's a fun sound. i was stunned by how well th chronosonic xvx (just a fun listen, out of my budget and would not fit in my room) did on hip hop. in fact i thought it was okay on most other genres but it had this bouncy sound compared to the more refined magicos. maybe the alexx v could deliver cons: could get boring after some time
3. i've looked at CAT before especially since the founder is also a fan of symphonic line. too many tubes and too much hassle. i run all solid state now and every now and then i'll see a great deal on arc (used to have one) and vac and get an itch to go down that road again but ultimately i pass.
4. upgrade my dac? to what end though. the emm da2 and dcs would offer more resolution and some bigger staging. msb is tonally similar to my rockna but i can't afford a select 2 nor do i want to.
5. i've heard the sonja's are more dynamic than magicos. dynamics help bring life to music...that said, i'm not sure how much dynamics is left to squeeze out. i was listening to mahler this morning and it was life like and stunning. hip hop, pop, and electronic are pretty low on dynamics in comparison so not sure i'm leaving much on the table.
i really do feel as though i've achieved great sound but for many of us in the hobby trying new gear is part of the fun. it helps us understand our music in different ways. i appreciate everyone letting me rant here and offering suggestions
i could save a ton of money by doing nothing lol - always a decent choice
Skanda,great question @caesar and, if you recall, i've mentioned to you that your posts on symphonic line are why i chose to take the leap when the opportuntiy was there to purchase a new kraft.
i am extremely satisfied with the sound. even without these new cables on the way i could live happily with this sound forever. however, this is also my favorite hobby so i like to experiement and push limits. i thought i was hearing it all until i got this taiko usb card and found that somehow there was so much more to be heard. this has inspired me a bit to push the system even further - that's basically it. i can't really even quantify what that would be:
1. more resolution maybe? pros: i love picking up on all the little details cons: i don't want my music to be butchered or lose any of that beautiful organic quality it currently has (the kraft and taiko synergize beautifully in terms of tone, texture, and what they do with soundstage sizing on all dimensions)
2. more dynamic? pros: it's a fun sound. i was stunned by how well th chronosonic xvx (just a fun listen, out of my budget and would not fit in my room) did on hip hop. in fact i thought it was okay on most other genres but it had this bouncy sound compared to the more refined magicos. maybe the alexx v could deliver cons: could get boring after some time
3. i've looked at CAT before especially since the founder is also a fan of symphonic line. too many tubes and too much hassle. i run all solid state now and every now and then i'll see a great deal on arc (used to have one) and vac and get an itch to go down that road again but ultimately i pass.
4. upgrade my dac? to what end though. the emm da2 and dcs would offer more resolution and some bigger staging. msb is tonally similar to my rockna but i can't afford a select 2 nor do i want to.
5. i've heard the sonja's are more dynamic than magicos. dynamics help bring life to music...that said, i'm not sure how much dynamics is left to squeeze out. i was listening to mahler this morning and it was life like and stunning. hip hop, pop, and electronic are pretty low on dynamics in comparison so not sure i'm leaving much on the table.
i really do feel as though i've achieved great sound but for many of us in the hobby trying new gear is part of the fun. it helps us understand our music in different ways. i appreciate everyone letting me rant here and offering suggestions
i could save a ton of money by doing nothing lol - always a decent choice
Try Cardas Clear Beyond speaker cables, shotgun bi-wire set up, (or true bi wire run) and their power cords , and the interconnects as well, if you can... That will drop your noise floor all the way to the downtown (
pun intended), and uncover few other layers of sound you had no idea existed within your set up. The effect will be like changing your entire amplifier set up. Whether you ll like & enjoy that effect or not, that is a different matter of course....Also, I would try the Townshend Audio Allegri Reference passive preamp, I'm 99.99% it will sound more transparent and lively than your current preamp, and as the Symphonic LIne amps have very high gain, they should match very well with each other. Much cheaper too, as you can make an offer to Max Townshend, and you have an option to return, within 15 -30 days trial period. The Townshend also makes awesome F1 Fractal speakers cables, worth exploring IMHO.
If you know Gideon, ask to borrow the Goldmund Telos 280 for at least two days or so, and leave it on for a day, for it to stabilize, its a very interesting amplifier, straight circuit, should work with Magicos well, and provide a noticeabley different flavor of sound, if you are bored with the SL at this stage .... As far as its price, bargain hard should you like it
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Hi Skanda,
This hobby wouldn't be fun if we weren't spending money, and once you build one system to your satisfaction, it's time to add to your collection and build another one.
Anyways, If I am interpreting correctly, the biggest issue for you is a lack of dynamics on fun music, like electronica and hip hop. And that's because of the limitations of the model of your speaker; those woofers just can't push enough air to fully rock out. I think Magico has come along way from the over-hyped and uber-analytical Q series, pushed by the "audio journalists" and marketed by the Neil Grobbers as the BEST they have ever heard. I believe, the Magico models of the last 5 or 6 years are much more musical (with the right amps) and much better engineered than the Wilsons...
I recently heard the new Wilson Alex xvx driven by dCS Vivaldi stack. I listened to Aretha and Mike Bloomfield, and I got bored after 30 seconds into each song... the audiophile vocabulary was perfectly executed and there was detail galore, but all emotion in the music was missing... Out of politeness for my buddy I stayed, but the whole time I was thinking: how can guys listen to that?, let alone spend a quarter of a million on a system like that... So I'd be very careful moving from Magico to Wilson.
Another great speaker that could work is Vivid. They disappear much better than other box speakers because of their unusual shape, and are very musical with the right amps.
Or, of course, you can get a horn! You already got great tone, and now you would also get dynamics. I just checked audiogon, and there is a demo Avantgarde for sale on the West Cost. I believe there is also a used one on the East coast. You can try that option for a price cheaper than another set of amps, and sell the horns if you don't like them. So, I think swapping amps is like milking a bull.. you won't get what you're looking for... Just a thought. Best of luck!
This hobby wouldn't be fun if we weren't spending money, and once you build one system to your satisfaction, it's time to add to your collection and build another one.
Anyways, If I am interpreting correctly, the biggest issue for you is a lack of dynamics on fun music, like electronica and hip hop. And that's because of the limitations of the model of your speaker; those woofers just can't push enough air to fully rock out. I think Magico has come along way from the over-hyped and uber-analytical Q series, pushed by the "audio journalists" and marketed by the Neil Grobbers as the BEST they have ever heard. I believe, the Magico models of the last 5 or 6 years are much more musical (with the right amps) and much better engineered than the Wilsons...
I recently heard the new Wilson Alex xvx driven by dCS Vivaldi stack. I listened to Aretha and Mike Bloomfield, and I got bored after 30 seconds into each song... the audiophile vocabulary was perfectly executed and there was detail galore, but all emotion in the music was missing... Out of politeness for my buddy I stayed, but the whole time I was thinking: how can guys listen to that?, let alone spend a quarter of a million on a system like that... So I'd be very careful moving from Magico to Wilson.
Another great speaker that could work is Vivid. They disappear much better than other box speakers because of their unusual shape, and are very musical with the right amps.
Or, of course, you can get a horn! You already got great tone, and now you would also get dynamics. I just checked audiogon, and there is a demo Avantgarde for sale on the West Cost. I believe there is also a used one on the East coast. You can try that option for a price cheaper than another set of amps, and sell the horns if you don't like them. So, I think swapping amps is like milking a bull.. you won't get what you're looking for... Just a thought. Best of luck!
great advice...i do feel like changing amps would be buying stuff to buy stuff. i think "lack of dynamics" is stronger language than i would use but i get what you're saying.
horns or a second system would be tough in my current living space - same with the mbl 101's unfortunately. i will likely have to wait till i move to another place to experiment with those types of speakers. i think the kraft would be too much for horns but a nice fit for the mbl's.
did you listen to more modern recordings on the alexx v's?
horns or a second system would be tough in my current living space - same with the mbl 101's unfortunately. i will likely have to wait till i move to another place to experiment with those types of speakers. i think the kraft would be too much for horns but a nice fit for the mbl's.
did you listen to more modern recordings on the alexx v's?
I do have a Kraft 300 dual mono i was using on a pair of Viking Acoustics Berlin speakers. Total over kill but it sounded really good . I've changed to Allnic 300B amps. A much better match.
wow! that sounds awesome - can you expand on why the allnic is a better match? is it just tonality?
also, what type of music do you listen to.
i listened to diesis horns a couple years back. nice but felt a bit mismatched with some of the hip hop i was using to put it through its paces. haven't seen many horns pushed with modern music - usually just softer vocal oriented music (which does sound very nice)
Skanda,
If the WAF is not of importance and you have some room away from walls, try the Eminent Technologies 8b, true bi-wired with SL. the sound will have more fidelity to the source than any Magico & Vivid , Wilson, etc , at any price, IMHO! Granted, lots of audiophiles suffer from SPS (small penis syndrome) that would prevent them to admit that a $2500 pair of speakers sound "better" than their $35 thousnd pride and joy, but alas , it would not hurt to try once in awhile, me thinks
And they play Cypress Hill just great!!!
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Skanda, reflecting on your option 1 - As an owner of both the Kraft 300 Stereo (40th Anniversary version) and Kraft 300 Monoblocks there are sonic similarities and some differences between the amps. The mono-blocks are more precise with imaging and a tad bit more liquid sounding while the Stereo (dual mono) is more dynamic and detailed probably contributed to the new Audyn caps and other tweeks in 40th Anniversary version that are not in my Monoblocks. Otherwise they are similar in sound. If I were in your shoes I would not mono-fi the Stereo amp........which is already dual mono. I will say cables make a big difference on the Kraft 300’s. Recently went from Nordost Odin to Transparent Audio and was amazed on how much more dynamic and detailed my system sounded without losing any transparency. There are So many variables into getting the optimum from your system. Hopefully the new loom of cables will bring out the best of the Kraft 300. Just wanted to share my experience with the Kraft 300 Stereo vs Monoblocks.
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