Symphonic Line

[caesar]

Caesar, Do you own any CAT gear?

Hi Knghfi,
Yes, I use CAT as my preamp in a bi-amped MBL system that is driven by Symphonic Line. And it is the pretty much best sound I have EVER heard, outside of possibly the MBL Extreme system. I say possibly because my system has what I believe are better amps - Symphonic Line, and also have tubes in the listening chain, which bring more emotion (and texture and better tonal reality) to my listening experience.

One can go on forums and read the stories of all the lost audiophile souls and the propagandists in the audio media, and these guys are looking for "real" sound, "analytical" audiophile sound, beautified sound, etc.

My system, thanks to CAT and Symphonic line is incredibly EMOTIONALLY ENGAGING on all types of recordings and with all types of music.

With better recordings, obviously it has more realism, with musicians playing - and musicians interacting with each other in a 3D space that gets carved out in my room with near horn dynamics, but much smoother than many of the aggressive horn setups I have experienced. And, of course, I got all the audiophile vocabulary, and I got a lot more transparency due to the open design that the box speakers just can't deliver on even in their models that cost near a million bucks.

In short thanks to CAT and Symphonic Line, I have a system I never even imagined I would own thanks to the emotional connection it delivers. And also realism - if I choose to listen to better recordings.

 

[caesar]

great advice...i do feel like changing amps would be buying stuff to buy stuff. i think "lack of dynamics" is stronger language than i would use but i get what you're saying.

horns or a second system would be tough in my current living space - same with the mbl 101's unfortunately. i will likely have to wait till i move to another place to experiment with those types of speakers. i think the kraft would be too much for horns but a nice fit for the mbl's.

did you listen to more modern recordings on the alexx v's?

Hi Skanda,

Yeah, lack of dynamics is a relative thing, but if you were to play a box speaker and immediately compare to a bi-amped MBL or a horn, the difference would be stark... it all depends on what you are used to...

Not sure what you mean by "modern music".... we didn't listen to any Gregorian chants, lol... I was listening with some alter cockers... these guys are satisfied with Quebuzz playlists full of audiophile music... Ricky Lee Warnes, Nora, Tin Pan Alley from Stevie - just like at audio shows... When I asked for blues, I got Hans Theesnik instead of Muddy Waters, and when I asked for Zepplin, these guys suggested Vanessa Fernandez... I did sneak in a couple of "modern" tunes and the best was Eminem Shake That...

But it just chased them out of the room... short of electroshock therapy, it's hard to change the sound many of the guys have been listening to since the 70s or early 80s

 

[Skanda]

Skanda, reflecting on your option 1 - As an owner of both the Kraft 300 Stereo (40th Anniversary version) and Kraft 300 Monoblocks there are sonic similarities and some differences between the amps. The mono-blocks are more precise with imaging and a tad bit more liquid sounding while the Stereo (dual mono) is more dynamic and detailed probably contributed to the new Audyn caps and other tweeks in 40th Anniversary version that are not in my Monoblocks. Otherwise they are similar in sound. If I were in your shoes I would not mono-fi the Stereo amp........which is already dual mono. I will say cables make a big difference on the Kraft 300’s. Recently went from Nordost Odin to Transparent Audio and was amazed on how much more dynamic and detailed my system sounded without losing any transparency. There are So many variables into getting the optimum from your system. Hopefully the new loom of cables will bring out the best of the Kraft 300. Just wanted to share my experience with the Kraft 300 Stereo vs Monoblocks.

this is awesome to hear! especially since my room isnt massive i was fretting about need for power and also just the space taken up by the amps. i bought my cables blind - tbh i find the cable purchase processing a bit of a bore and ocd inducing (preferring to have a full loom). but who knows maybe this will get me more interested in the cable side of things. from everything i read about them it seemed like they would synergize well but jury's out until i listen. i'm sure it will be fine

 

[Skanda]

Hi Skanda,

Yeah, lack of dynamics is a relative thing, but if you were to play a box speaker and immediately compare to a bi-amped MBL or a horn, the difference would be stark... it all depends on what you are used to...

Not sure what you mean by "modern music".... we didn't listen to any Gregorian chants, lol... I was listening with some alter cockers... these guys are satisfied with Quebuzz playlists full of audiophile music... Ricky Lee Warnes, Nora, Tin Pan Alley from Stevie - just like at audio shows... When I asked for blues, I got Hans Theesnik instead of Muddy Waters, and when I asked for Zepplin, these guys suggested Vanessa Fernandez... I did sneak in a couple of "modern" tunes and the best was Eminem Shake That...

But it just chased them out of the room... short of electroshock therapy, it's hard to change the sound many of the guys have been listening to since the 70s or early 80s

hahaha the modern music i'm referring to is closer to eminem - rap, hip hop, electronic, pop, some rock usually recorded 1990 and after. but i'm happy to listen to some classical or jazz etc as i explore more music. i never got the point of playing something like tin pan alley... love the track and love most of srv's discography but honestly it's so well recorded i would sound good out of macbook speakers lol.

i'm really amused they tried to give you vanessa fernandez instead of true zep (i do like blasting zep from time to time). i hope i never have to listen to "liberty" or musica nuda again. really really really far from what i want my stereo playing

 

[knghifi]

3. i've looked at CAT before especially since the founder is also a fan of symphonic line. too many tubes and too much hassle. i run all solid state now and every now and then i'll see a great deal on arc (used to have one) and vac and get an itch to go down that road again but ultimately i pass.

I hear you, big CAT fan but due to size, maintenance... zero interest owning one until JL5 and JL7. I have JL7 SE mono that's ~85 lbs each. Auto bias, power tubes should last 7 to 8 years under normal use, quiet, runs cooler after SE upgrade and has a 30 lbs single wire output transformer (size of original Statement) made from same materials as the far east exotic SETs. I bet SET diehards would approve of the SQ even though don't need all the power.

I've had many tube amps and CAT is my favorite. Recently had ARC REF250SE and JL7 (before SE upgrade) same time, and JL7 won unanimously with all familiar with my system.

I'm also a Soulution preamp fan. Have a 560 (basically 525 + DAC) with Leedh processing direct to JL7. With Leedh sounds better direct than through a preamp.

You should get a tube amp rotate in and out keep from getting bored.

 

[Skanda]

oh sick, i'll have to look into those models. cat and lamm were the other amps that klaus mentioned as being alongside the kraft.
love the use of a soulution pre...it pairs really well with the kraft and technically is a great pre that can drive pretty much everything.

 

[caesar]

I hear you, big CAT fan but due to size, maintenance... zero interest owning one until JL5 and JL7. I have JL7 SE mono that's ~85 lbs each. Auto bias, power tubes should last 7 to 8 years under normal use, quiet, runs cooler after SE upgrade and has a 30 lbs single wire output transformer (size of original Statement) made from same materials as the far east exotic SETs. I bet SET diehards would approve of the SQ even though don't need all the power.

I've had many tube amps and CAT is my favorite. Recently had ARC REF250SE and JL7 (before SE upgrade) same time, and JL7 won unanimously with all familiar with my system.

I'm also a Soulution preamp fan. Have a 560 (basically 525 + DAC) with Leedh processing direct to JL7. With Leedh sounds better direct than through a preamp.

You should get a tube amp rotate in and out keep from getting bored.

yes, I totally don't get the audiophile culture fascination with Audio Research. Vast majority of models I have heard just present audiophile vocabulary instead of emotion of the performance... if they can drive the speaker.

But in most cases they can't. So they sound syrupy and analytical.

 

[caesar]

oh sick, i'll have to look into those models. cat and lamm were the other amps that klaus mentioned as being alongside the kraft.
love the use of a soulution pre...it pairs really well with the kraft and technically is a great pre that can drive pretty much everything.

Yes, Klaus is on to something. But I would also add Jadis to the list with CAT and Lamm - for the segment that wants an emotional engagement with the music. (And also Atmasphere with many electrostats.)

 

[microstrip]

yes, I totally don't get the audiophile culture fascination with Audio Research. Vast majority of models I have heard just present audiophile vocabulary instead of emotion of the performance... if they can drive the speaker.

But in most cases they can't. So they sound syrupy and analytical.

Again we disagree on the quantitative. IMHO the majority of their models can present music in an a very emotional way, the exception were the solid state models and a few hybrids. We could go through all the models in the ARC database and I think most of them are excellent gear.

I have owned ARC since long, including the SP8 and SP10. The full list would be long ...

 

[bonzo75]

I hear you, big CAT fan but due to size, maintenance... zero interest owning one until JL5 and JL7. I have JL7 SE mono that's ~85 lbs each. Auto bias, power tubes should last 7 to 8 years under normal use, quiet, runs cooler after SE upgrade and has a 30 lbs single wire output transformer (size of original Statement) made from same materials as the far east exotic SETs. I bet SET diehards would approve of the SQ even though don't need all the power.

I've had many tube amps and CAT is my favorite. Recently had ARC REF250SE and JL7 (before SE upgrade) same time, and JL7 won unanimously with all familiar with my system.

I'm also a Soulution preamp fan. Have a 560 (basically 525 + DAC) with Leedh processing direct to JL7. With Leedh sounds better direct than through a preamp.

You should get a tube amp rotate in and out keep from getting bored.

I am a big fan of the Soulution preamp into valve power amps

 

[caesar]

Again we disagree on the quantitative. IMHO the majority of their models can present music in an a very emotional way, the exception were the solid state models and a few hybrids. We could go through all the models in the ARC database and I think most of them are excellent gear.

I have owned ARC since long, including the SP8 and SP10. The full list would be long ...

Yes, SP10 may be the exception - I would definitely agree with you on that one being a true winner. but the list is quite short per my taste But I am not an "audiophile" - and think most of the popular , well-marketed brands are analytical drek and are a scourge upon our hobby

 

[marty]

Hi Skanda,

Yeah, lack of dynamics is a relative thing, but if you were to play a box speaker and immediately compare to a bi-amped MBL or a horn, the difference would be stark... it all depends on what you are used to...

Not sure what you mean by "modern music".... we didn't listen to any Gregorian chants, lol... I was listening with some alter cockers... these guys are satisfied with Quebuzz playlists full of audiophile music... Ricky Lee Warnes, Nora, Tin Pan Alley from Stevie - just like at audio shows... When I asked for blues, I got Hans Theesnik instead of Muddy Waters, and when I asked for Zepplin, these guys suggested Vanessa Fernandez... I did sneak in a couple of "modern" tunes and the best was Eminem Shake That...

But it just chased them out of the room... short of electroshock therapy, it's hard to change the sound many of the guys have been listening to since the 70s or early 80s

Well, we all know musical taste is personal preference, but listening to that Eminem song, I just have to shake my head. No wonder our country is circling the drain. Songs like this are part of the reason why. Or perhaps to be more polite. It's hardly a musical masterpiece. In fact, like much of rap, its not really music as much as it is theater. To each their own I guess.

 

[caesar]

Hey Marty,
I am not a culture warrior, but a freedom-loving guy, so I won't judge this or individuals who like this type of music (and the sum of whose tastes contribute to the overall culture we live in and influence everyone) ... interestingly, when my exercise instructor plays this song, the ladies just love it, go crazy, and put more ooomph into their exercise routine... But I don't want to get off topic, . If the popular combinations of audiophile systems were better able to play this type of music better, I am confident we would have a better hobby and a better audiophile culture.

 

[Lagonda]

Hey Marty,
I am not a culture warrior, but a freedom-loving guy, so I won't judge this or individuals who like this type of music (and the sum of whose tastes contribute to the overall culture we live in and influence everyone) ... interestingly, when my exercise instructor plays this song, the ladies just love it, go crazy, and put more ooomph into their exercise routine... But I don't want to get off topic, . If the popular combinations of audiophile systems were better able to play this type of music better, I am confident we would have a better hobby and a better audiophile culture.

Why would the hobby be better if it could play this kind of music ? Honestly Caesar, if you want a system that plays this crap well, you are much better of with a low resolution systems for which it was mixed. Well recorded music will sound like shit on a system designed to play this well. Dac makers could easily include a "crap" setting in their dac's if they desired. Vinyl lovers have sloppy cartridges with mid bass boost and cut down highs for this kind of music, ask your local DJ for advice, Ortofon still carries a lot of these cartridges, good for badly recorded music from the 80's also !

 

[caesar]

Why would the hobby be better if it could play this kind of music ? Honestly Caesar, if you want a system that plays this crap well, you are much better of with a low resolution systems for which it was mixed. Well recorded music will sound like shit on a system designed to play this well. Dac makers could easily include a "crap" setting in their dac's if they desired. Vinyl lovers have sloppy cartridges with mid bass boost and cut down highs for this kind of music, ask your local DJ for advice, Ortofon still carries a lot of these cartridges, good for badly recorded music from the 80's also !

Hi Lagonda,
I think we are operating under different paradigms... Unfortunately, most people in this hobby are after sounds and noises - not music.

But there is a small number of participants in this hobby who are music lovers who want great sound. I proudly belong to the latter group.

A few months ago, a new, freshly minted reviewer, Mathew (Clipp, Clopp, Cloop, Clup, Clap, or something like that) from Scumlord Tom's The Analytical Audiophile Sound, committed a huge political faux pas. He revealed a truth that everyone knows but is true but is not meant to be said in public.

He went to a dealer who had the $500K + wilson wamm junior xvx system, streamed his playlist, and said the speaker sounded horrible streaming his favorite music.... that in a nutshell is the biggest existential dilemma in our hobby: normal people can't listen to music they enjoy because it sounds horrible.. (anyone know if he got fired?)

A music lover could hang himself listening to this awful , audiophile approved stuff: https://audiobacon.net/2021/05/09/listening-rooms-axpona-lost-tapes/

or this:

truly pathetic and depressing what these audiophiles listen to

My paradigm is much more inclusive: create products and gear that let people enjoy the music they like, not a handful of well recorded music that is bad music.

My MBL system and many high efficiency systems succeed at that. I listened to 4 hours of Grateful Dead music this weekend that had a Caveat Emptor:

"The recording herein has been lovingly remastered directly from the original two-track master tape and is therefore not immune to the various glitches, splices, reel changes and other aural gremlins contained on said original. Dick's Picks differs from our From The Vault series in that we simply did not have access to complete shows (nor the modern mixing capabilities afforded by multitrack tapes). But we think the historical value and musical quality of these tapes more than compensates for any technical anomalies... In other words, what you hear is what you get. And what you get ain't bad!"

I loved every second of these Dead shows and I was in complete state of flow.

So my take is simple: a more inclusive hobby is a better hobby. More satisfied people enjoying more music. More innovation. Better gear... resulting in a virtuous cycle. Instead of the horrible state we currently have.

 

[Lagonda]

Hi Lagonda,
I think we are operating under different paradigms... Unfortunately, most people in this hobby are after sounds and noises - not music.

But there is a small number of participants in this hobby who are music lovers who want great sound. I proudly belong to the latter group.

A few months ago, a new, freshly minted reviewer, Mathew (Clipp, Clopp, Cloop, Clup, Clap, or something like that) from Scumlord Tom's The Analytical Audiophile Sound, committed a huge political faux pas. He revealed a truth that everyone knows but is true but is not meant to be said in public.

He went to a dealer who had the $500K + wilson wamm junior xvx system, streamed his playlist, and said the speaker sounded horrible streaming his favorite music.... that in a nutshell is the biggest existential dilemma in our hobby: normal people can't listen to music they enjoy because it sounds horrible.. (anyone know if he got fired?)

A music lover could hang himself listening to this awful , audiophile approved stuff: https://audiobacon.net/2021/05/09/listening-rooms-axpona-lost-tapes/

or this:

truly pathetic and depressing what these audiophiles listen to

My paradigm is much more inclusive: create products and gear that let people enjoy the music they like, not a handful of well recorded music that is bad music.

My MBL system and many high efficiency systems succeed at that. I listened to 4 hours of Grateful Dead music this weekend that had a Caveat Emptor:

"The recording herein has been lovingly remastered directly from the original two-track master tape and is therefore not immune to the various glitches, splices, reel changes and other aural gremlins contained on said original. Dick's Picks differs from our From The Vault series in that we simply did not have access to complete shows (nor the modern mixing capabilities afforded by multitrack tapes). But we think the historical value and musical quality of these tapes more than compensates for any technical anomalies... In other words, what you hear is what you get. And what you get ain't bad!"

I loved every second of these Dead shows and I was in complete state of flow.

So my take is simple: a more inclusive hobby is a better hobby. More satisfied people enjoying more music. More innovation. Better gear... resulting in a virtuous cycle. Instead of the horrible state we currently have.

I absolutely agree that a system should be able to play regular music to a pleasurable degree, but i don't agree that most audiophiles only play extremely well recorded boring shit. Most of us started as music lovers and still love the music we grew up with, additional development of taste for well recorded live instruments is maybe a byproduct of wanting to also hear what a high-end system is capable of. I doubt that many audiophiles only listen to the music you hear at audio shows, but i can't blame manufacturers for wanting to showcase their equipment with music that show the full capabilities of the gear. I know from years of involvement in the commercial recording industry that most current music is mixed to sound good streamed to a mobile device, and that is not the lowest common denominator that my system aspires to. Right now i am listening to traditional Irish music by The Chieftains, real acoustic instruments with great dynamics and also a lot of fun Earlier i played Van Morrison and Eric Clapton live, old fart music yes, but definitely not boring

 

[Skanda]

Well, we all know musical taste is personal preference, but listening to that Eminem song, I just have to shake my head. No wonder our country is circling the drain. Songs like this are part of the reason why. Or perhaps to be more polite. It's hardly a musical masterpiece. In fact, like much of rap, its not really music as much as it is theater. To each their own I guess.

sorry marty, nothing personal but that kind of comment is grounded in ignorance. rap is as much a musical artform as jazz, classical, rock, etc. when you listen to more rap, you'll understand why. and if that's not your jam then no problem at all but i'm just saying listen and learn before you judge.

 

[spiritofmusic]

One of the joys of riding around in my best friend's plumbers work van is listening to a whole bunch of music on his MP3 system I absolutely wouldn't at home...Johnny Cash, live Elvis...and Eminem, NWA etc...AdultOrientedRap lol
And it all sounds a treat, amazing how liberating being non-PC for the day is!

 

[spiritofmusic]

I know someone quite closely who runs a music and composition degree course at a UK university. He's a classically trained pianist, gigging jazz musician, and equally confident in front of a piano keyboard making music traditionally, or tablet keyboard making music digitally. He does quite a bit of original composing, fusing old school with rap/dance etc.
He tells me his students, many from working class backgrounds, poor housing, street culture...are wholly into Beethoven and Duke Ellington etc primarily through him exposing his classes to the great artists...but equally and often more into Grime etc.
And had my professor friend not been all encompassing with his influences and breadth of musical curriculum, he'd never have got his kids onside.

 

[Skanda]

that's awesome! music of all sorts is interesting and some types resonate more strongly than others. shitty people ruin society for the rest of us, not hip hop, not violent video games, not movies. hell if we wanna go down the whole drain circling thing i'd say jingoistic marvel movies have done more harm than anything else

but i'm hear to talk about audio and symphonic line amps in specific. everything else is for a different forum/platform. however, i'll maintain that marty's comment is incredibly uncalled for especially considering that he joined this discussion literally to shit on a form of music some of us were actively discussing in context of gear. it's, as the kids say, whack.