Taiko Audio SGM Extreme : the Crème de la Crème

[Taiko Audio]

Emile,

I admire your achievements and I like your "dreams". I too would love to only stream music and have the best sound. For me and my system, file based is superior by a good margin.
I have tried everything on the hardware side to make streaming as good as possible, and have brick-walled with regards to what I know and info I have gathered. I welcome more info regarding. I hope you conquer this.

Do you have a good idea as to what the root network problems are with regards to streaming only?

Another question, a bit sidestepped... Do you think an endpoint setup with network storage can be as good as an all in one solution, such as your Extreme?

Thank you
Paul

Hi Paul,

I am starting to develop a good understanding of what influences streaming quality relative to file playback performance. I have a few promising experimental setups running in our workshop. Keep watching this space.

As to your second question, that would be the ideal solution, Tidal/Qobuz could be viewed as network storage. However we are not there yet.

 

[Taiko Audio]

Thanks Esotar for sharing the experience/difficulty of using Extreme with Aqua Formula.
No wonder the HK SGM dealer rarely pairs Extreme with Aqua Formula together in his showroom, although he carries also Aqua in HK.

It's not a problem, the Aqua works fine with the Extreme, very well actually. The Aqua just does not allow its driver buffer sizes to be configured. This means the Jplay maximum stable "dac link" setting is limited to 200Hz where most will support 1000Hz. It would sound a bit better if it could do that. I have contacting Aqua to enable buffer size configuration on my todo list. It should be quite easy for them to do.

 

[Taiko Audio]

One C1 user ordered Extreme and I tried to connect them, but I couldn't do that.

To use SGM Extreme for C1 user, there is only way to use or buy USB Input Card.

C1 is fantastic DAC, but Korean C1 users can't use SGM Extreme.

The C1 user who ordered SGM Extreme sold C1 and ordered d1-Twelve MK II for SGM Extreme.

The C1 "old" ethernet input card does not support Roon, it is exclusively an upnp endpoint, and not a generic upnp endpoint, you need their own app to control it, this makes it useless to use with a server. They were working on Roon support, I did read recently that they either have it ready, or it is soon to be released. I do fear it's not an upgrade, but a replacement of their current ethernet input option.

 

[Taiko Audio]

Emile seems to think the best DAC is TotalDAC d1-Twelve MK II.

I do really like its ability to sound "live". It does a very convincing "being there" job, recreating the recording venue which extends way beyond your room boundaries. It captures the raw power, energy, dynamic queues and full colour palette/textures of the instruments. If you like to listen to live music recordings it is my first pick, currently

 

[Taiko Audio]

Thanks Esotar for sharing the experience/difficulty of using Extreme with Aqua Formula.
No wonder the HK SGM dealer rarely pairs Extreme with Aqua Formula together in his showroom, although he carries also Aqua in HK.

I have both the Aqua and Totaldac here, I would demo with the Totaldac. The Formula is a very solid performer, you could almost call it a bargain for what it does at its price level, but it's not a Totaldac. I'm looking forward to trying the Formula's new analogue output board. It should be on its way!

 

[Blackmorec]

I am very interested in this subject at the moment. And especially the upstream gear. So audiophile switch, OCXO clocks and LPS. If everything from the entry to your house to feeding your DAC is fully optimised, I am convinced streaming can equal local playback on a server.

Over the past 15 months I’ve spent quite some effort (time and money) optimising my remote data stream. With Virgin as an internet supplier I have well over 200 Mbps arriving into the house via a coaxial cable. Virgin obligate consumers to use their modem in order not to inject noise into their network. Beyond their Superhub3 in modem mode, one is free to use any wi-fi router and ethernet cables downstream of the modem.
Interestingly I have made many improvements to the network stream, which immediately reflected in improved SQ for remote streamed files. Adding CHC DC3 LPSs to modem, router, extender and switch brought substantial improvements, as did standardising the cable loom and providing all components with anti-vibration tables and mountings. The improvements were indeed substantial, solving one frequency anomaly in the bass that I’d previously thought was a room node, and pushing the replayed music much closer to the sound of live music. With all the improvements to the front end of remote streaming you’d expect it to at least equal local file streaming but the really wierd thing is that adding LPSs and actively screened cables to the remote stream also had a positive impact on the sound of locally streamed files. My only explanation is that improvements in the front end prevent noise from entereing the system to the detriment of both remote and local streamed music. One thing I can say....if you haven’t optimised your entire data stream, from cable entry onwards, you are leaving a lot of potential SQ improvements untapped, whether you are playing local or remote streamed files

 

[Sablon Audio]

Does anyhow have a view on how the D1 Direct and Seven models stack up against the Twelve?

 

[Taiko Audio]

Does anyhow have a view on how the D1 Direct and Seven models stack up against the Twelve?

The D1-12 mk2 has both buffered and (dac) direct outputs. The direct outputs are quite a significant step up over the buffered ones in my system. I have not heard the D1-7 but I would expect atleast the same difference to apply here. You do need sufficient gain in your amplifier chain, but the d1-12 direct outputs work well even with the Bespoke passive preamp.

 

[Esotar]

Does anyhow have a view on how the D1 Direct and Seven models stack up against the Twelve?

30% of Korean Extreme customers are TotalDAC d1-Seven users.

These 30% customers are much more satisfied with Extreme.

In Korea, there is no d1 - Direct users.

I heard 4 d1-Seven users' systems with Extreme.

Very natural & Deep texture sound and large stage are impressed.

Among them, one customer uses d1-Reclocker.

Of cause his system sound is the best.

Actually TotalDAC couldn't receive attention from now in Korea.

But through SGM Extreme, TotalDAC's great quality is informing to whole Korean HI FI market.

For best sound, 8 Extreme customers replaced their DAC to d1-Twelve MK II or Seven.

TotalDAC is now very busy, so d1-Twelve MK II seems to be delayed.

When their d1-Twelve MK IIs are arrived, I'll visit their house and record their systems' sound.

If sharing recordinf files is not problem, I'll post link to download.

All music files will be recorded for 2 minutes because of copyright.

And recording format will be 24bit / 96KHz.

 

[Sablon Audio]

Thanks for sharing your insights Esotar / Taiko

 

[Esotar]

Thanks for sharing your insights Esotar / Taiko

The DACs I can record are :

~ TotalDAC d1-Seven + d1-Reclocker

~ TotalDAC d1-Twelve

~ Denafrips Terminator (XMOS version)

~ LampizatOr Golden Atlantic

~ Aqua Acoustic Quality Formula xHD (Not Analogue Upgrade)

~ Trinity DAC

My customers don't have MSB DACs.

I have Analog DAC. But this DAC is discontinued, so I'll exclude it.


Please tell me your three favorite songs

 

[nonesup]

I have commented with Stavros about whether Kassandra's XMOS could be configured with Jplay to Minimum Latency and it seems that the answer is yes.

 

[steve williams]

As a newbie following this thread with great interest could someone enlighten me as to the significance of jplay with the Extreme

 

[Taiko Audio]

Asa newbie following this thread with great interest could someone enlighten me as to the significance of jplay with the Extreme

Hi Steve,

Jplay is a playback engine sitting in between Roon and the DAC driver, it allows some (undisclosed) control/tuning of the datastream. It is not mandatory, as Roon can function without it, though highly recommended as it does improve sound quality. It is included as a default option with the Extreme.

 

[Taiko Audio]

I have commented with Stavros about whether Kassandra's XMOS could be configured with Jplay to Minimum Latency and it seems that the answer is yes.

Good to know, thanks. Almost all XMOS drivers are configurable, the desired setting is either minimum latency, or its equivalent of a 1 millisecond buffer. It’s good to be aware that almost all of the higher tier DACs are using a XMOS USB interface. Another widely used USB interface is Amanero, but that is more often used in lower pricerange DACs and the DIY scene.

The Aqua Formula DAC previously discussed uses a XMOS interface aswell (XHD), it would easily be capable of this “low latency” operation, except the buffer size configuration is not included with its control panel. If implemented, we could squeeze a bit more performance out of it.

 

[CKKeung]

Does anyhow have a view on how the D1 Direct and Seven models stack up against the Twelve?

My personal preference is Totaldac Direct instead of Seven.
BTW please add the Totaldac Reclocker to your Totaldac dac.
Reclocker is integrated into the Twelve Mk1/Mk2 already and one of the reasons why it's so good.
The Relocker can make the Direct much closer to Twelve Mk2.

 

[CKKeung]

It’d be nice if Aqua could share their i2s protocol with Emile for direct connection

Hello Emile,
Please see if this is possible or not too, when you are asking Aqua to amend their XMOS driver.

 

[Empirical Audio]

Hi Steve,

Jplay is a playback engine sitting in between Roon and the DAC driver, it allows some (undisclosed) control/tuning of the datastream. It is not mandatory, as Roon can function without it, though highly recommended as it does improve sound quality. It is included as a default option with the Extreme.

How does Jplay compare to HQPlayer when used with Roon?

 

[Taiko Audio]

My personal preference is Totaldac Direct instead of Seven.
BTW please add the Totaldac Reclocker to your Totaldac dac.
Reclocker is integrated into the Twelve Mk1/Mk2 already and one of the reasons why it's so good.
The Relocker can make the Direct much closer to Twelve Mk2.

+1 I've heard the D1-direct with reclocker is close to D1-12mk2 level from several sources.

 

[Brucemck2]

I’ve used both JPlay and HQ Player individually and together.

HQ’s primary contribution is direct control over upsampling and filters, which allows you to select a format that best matches the applicable dac. It’s also good for managing complex convolution pipelines, speaker time/volume delays, etc. It’s very processor intensive and benefits greatly from a high-cuda-core video card to perform floating point math. As Roon has gotten better the sonic contribution has declined. It’s particularly helpful to me as I’ve got four separate dacs (two for speakers and two for headphones) that each respond differently.

JPlay’s primary contribution is removing processes not essential to processing music. As such the things it does are quite different. Peanut butter and jelly rather than two flavors of jam.