Taiko Audio SGM Extreme : the Crème de la Crème

Kingsrule

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Jpowell

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Aside from SQ--I'm immensely enjoying TAS from that standpoint--I have to say that some of the new features of Roon 1.8 are very appealing looking. As some others have mentioned, I've used Roon Radio a lot to just leisurely explore new music that's correlated with my own preferences and listening habits. It seems 1.8 will be even more useful in terms of that kind of exploration. So I suspect that I may find myself leaning on TAS for 'serious' listening and veering over into Roon for exploration.
Just an observation....
 

oldmustang

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Dec 1, 2012
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Aside from SQ--I'm immensely enjoying TAS from that standpoint--I have to say that some of the new features of Roon 1.8 are very appealing looking. As some others have mentioned, I've used Roon Radio a lot to just leisurely explore new music that's correlated with my own preferences and listening habits. It seems 1.8 will be even more useful in terms of that kind of exploration. So I suspect that I may find myself leaning on TAS for 'serious' listening and veering over into Roon for exploration.
Just an observation....
My "top-three" for the TAS wishlist are:

The equivalent to Roon Radio (or LMS' "Don't Let The Music Stop" function). More than anything else, Roon Radio has tremendously expanded my musical horizons into music and genres I would likely never have discovered on my own.

A Search function that will display results for existing library contents *and* Qobuz/Tidal titles not yet added to the library all at once, rather than the (at least) two searches -- one for My Music and one for each subscription service -- currently required in TAS

Alternatively, the ability to use Roon's UI as a front end and TAS to actually play music, avoiding Roon's sonic penalty.

Steve Z
 

EuroDriver

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Blue,
The curious want to know: was the sq-enhancing fiddling with the system related to the file problem or some other un-related fiddling?



Barry was the second virgin Beta Installation and did not receive the full set of matching parameter settings.

We only realized this oversight recently and Wilson corrected it
 
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cat6man

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@EuroDriver

can you share anything regarding the longer term plans to support s/w and f/w upgrades?
the beta process is obviously labor intensive on your end (only 15 min on ours!)
will TAS upgrades in the (not necessarily near) future be self-service? driver upgrades?
perhaps something in the app that can give you a report of settings (e.g. Barry's case) without scheduling an appointment?


similar question for the TAS app--i assume the iphone app will be upgraded via the applestore and the android app via an apk (either playstore or via download/announcement)?

i'm really just wondering if you'd had (any?) breathing space to look out further.

stay safe out there!
 

EuroDriver

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Sep 16, 2015
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@EuroDriver

can you share anything regarding the longer term plans to support s/w and f/w upgrades?
the beta process is obviously labor intensive on your end (only 15 min on ours!)
will TAS upgrades in the (not necessarily near) future be self-service? driver upgrades?
perhaps something in the app that can give you a report of settings (e.g. Barry's case) without scheduling an appointment?


similar question for the TAS app--i assume the iphone app will be upgraded via the applestore and the android app via an apk (either playstore or via download/announcement)?

i'm really just wondering if you'd had (any?) breathing space to look out further.

stay safe out there!
Great questions cat6man

Software upgrades will announce themselves on the Taiko Mobile App. Then you have a choice to go ahead and install or not

The Mobile App will eventually migrate from TestFlight to the Appstore, and will announce when there is a new Update version available

We don’t foresee any firmware upgrades for the Extreme which would be like a BIOS update. However the procedure for this is easier for the server grade mobo which has a system supervisor which is independant of the OS. The update process is manageable. Server hardware is designed to be maintainable in farms with thousands of units

Driver upgrades/changes will hopefully not happen very often, but will need our intervention if the Extreme Owner needs help. This we are happy to provide.

With regards to good settings for particular DAC’s. This is something we are thinking about and plan to implement so as to make arriving at good DAC specific settings easy to achieve

In terms of our planning horizon and software road map, it stretches 12 months into the future
 

alwayslearning

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Jan 13, 2011
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My beta testing has been an up and down experience, mostly up, and after a lengthy session with Wilson, I'm optimistic this will continue to be the best digital I've heard in my system. These impressions are still early, only a week or so after installation, with some bumps along the way.

I am a Chord DAVE user and, so far, haven't seen many beta reports from DAVE users here (maybe folks are submitting feedback through TestFlight). I'm curious whether my experience is similar to other DAVE users. Before my Extreme shipped, Taiko installed HQP Desktop (version 4.7.2) and tweaked the HQP settings to mimic those of other Chord DAVE users to obtain the benefit of 16 million taps of upsampling power. I believe that Taiko also set it up so that HQP server would run on one CPU and NAA would run on the other CPU (I've asked Emile to confirm this).

Sound

The player that I am using most of the time these days is TAS/HQP. As many other beta testers have reported here, the sound is superlative with:

- stunning clarity and presence

- hidden detail and nuance emerging from blackest blacks

- vocals extremely lifelike

- immersive wall of sound with well-recorded music

Now, is this the sort of change I heard when first inserting the Extreme and replacing a somewhat outdated digital server/endpoint system? No. That change was seismic, the sort of change that you might hear a few times in a lifetime.

But -- the change wrought by this software is not small. With most music, it is immediately noticeable in the first 10-15 seconds, especially well-recorded music. The difference between really well-recorded music and poorly recorded music has grown, in my experience. Yes, some of the old Redbook tunes sound much better, but some of the bad stuff is still really bad.

On the whole, though, this is fantastic sounding software.

Compared to Roon/HQP

Even with HQP upsampling in conjunction with Roon, TAS is much, much better. And there is another huge benefit to TAS: when playing tracks in a playlist with different sampling rates, Roon/HQP would cut off the end of a song and start calculating the upsampling coefficient for the next song. You simply cannot listen to a playlist this way and so it meant playing songs one at a time. TAS/HQP solves that problem.

I will probably still use Roon for music discovery, using Chord ASIO as the audio playback device. The sound is much inferior to TAS but I'm not going to worry about that for new music discovery purposes.

Compared to HQP alone

This is the comparison I was really interested in because, prior to TAS, this was the highest fidelity digital I had experienced in my home. I can run HQP independently of both Roon and TAS by using VNC Viewer and just dumping music files into the HQP queue. I can also unplug the network and let the HQP queue just play out. Yes, HQP's user interface is primitive but the SQ is sublime.

HQP is much closer to TAS/HQP but my early impressions favor the latter. HQP as a standalone player sounds more raw, sometimes more dynamic, but with a little more edge. TAS/HQP still sounds very dynamic but is gentler on the ears, a little smoother and easier to listen to over time. I also find that TAS/HQP has the edge at capturing the authentic timbre of an oboe, clarinet, and other instruments where timbre is critical. Both players are extremely transparent.

Even if HQP standalone had a slight edge over TAS/HQP, I doubt I would use it much -- the user experience with TAS is light years beyond HQP standalone.

TAS/HQP compared to XD

When switching to XD, I've been using PCM 256 and DSD 8196, since these are the settings that Emile reported other Chord DAVE users were favoring. I haven't done a lot of experimentation with XD, but at least with PCM I think there is a clear winner and it is TAS/HQP. HQP is simply more dynamic, more transparent, more exciting with more PRAT, has greater ambiance, and is just a more pleasurable listening experience. If I were listening to XD without the benefit of hearing HQP, I'd think it was pretty great, but you can't unhear the glories of TAS/HQP.

Look and Feel

With my new iPad Air, TAS has an elegant aesthetic, with clean graphics and beautiful album art. The app is responsive to my touch, generally very speedy. Wilson and team are to be congratulated on providing a pleasurable visual and touch experience.

HQP Problems and Wilson to the Rescue

After about five days of smooth sailing, I ran into problems running TAS/HQP. The problems arose after I would switch to Roon or when I would switch to ExtremeDirect. Specifically, after switching back to TAS/HQP, I could not get it to play. The "playing" window would show the tune and would sometimes show the song progressing along, but there would be no sound. Other times, HQP would play a tune but the advance button would not work. I could sometimes get TAS/HQP to function but there was a randomness to how it was all occurring that confused me. So I reached out to the Taiko team with some TestFlight feedback and emails.

Wilson was quick to respond and we set up a TeamViewer session for the next day. Yesterday, Wilson spent an hour and forty-five minutes in my system (!). I am happy to report that everything has been working fine since then. He re-installed HQP, first using some older versions of HQP, which apparently did not work, and then back to version 4.7.2. That version now appears to work fine in my system. Thank you Wilson.

Not only did Wilson fix the problem, but he removed a part of HQP (something called "MEGA_DSP" or something like that) and now TAS/HQP is much faster to start playing tunes, with no apparent sonic penalty. Before this, HQP would take up to 36 or even 40 seconds to start a new tune, regardless of whether that tune was already in the queue or not. Although I was used to a long lag with Roon/HQP, it is annoying. Now it takes about 10 seconds or less. My understanding is that the heavy duty upsampling that HQP is doing with my settings is the reason for the lag, but I can tell you that 8 or 10 seconds versus 36 or 40 seconds is a huge difference and makes listening sessions much better.

Meanwhile, HQP is up to version 4.9.2, so at some point I am going to want Taiko to update this. But if you've been following the HQP thread over at audiophilestyle.com, you'll see that a number of people, including some Extreme users, believe that version 4.9.0 sounds better than the latest version. So I think I'll wait to update until the dust settles a bit.

Functionality

While we all hope that Taiko keeps finding ways to improve sonic quality, and that is the first priority for most of us, my feeling is that most of the longer-term work on TAS will focus on improving the user experience. I will have more to say about this in later posts as I get more time with TAS, but here are a few early observations:

- solving the gapless problem should be a priority; you simply cannot listen to side 2 of Abbey Road, or a good deal of other albums and pieces of music, with even a 3-4 second gap; it ruins the experience

- I ran into a problem with one of my album titles that mistakenly included a ")" symbol. I couldn't find it using search. When I finally tracked it down using File Explorer, I removed the symbol and re-scanned the library. Problem solved (as others have reported). I'm not sure how many other titles this might be affecting, however.

- as others have noted, it would be great to be able to search by DSD, PCM, sampling rate, label, and all the other categories of search that Roon now recognizes

- it would be nice to click on the name of an album in the Playing window and get that album to appear in Browse

- the existence of Album Review information (and Artist and Lyrics) has some surprising omissions in my experience (e.g., Exile on Main Street); Roon's incorporation of AllMusic content appears to be much more comprehensive (not sure why this would be the case -- maybe something to do with TAS recognizing the music being played?)

- incorrect album art selected for some recordings, e.g., a pair of Shostakovich symphonies performed by Petrenko and Royal Liverpool Phil (found in a folder in my library so labeled), pulled up album art for Haitink conducting these symphonies with two different orchestras; I then checked on Roon and the correct album art was displayed

- nothing like Roon Radio; but I don't view this as a big problem because: 1) I tend to discover new music through reading about music and from friends; and 2) I can just switch to Roon!

- the TAS search function does not anticipate what you are searching for by suggesting albums, tunes, or artists; I miss this

Those are just a few notes I made; there will be more to follow. I hope other Beta testers come up with more suggestions/notes like this.
 

Kris

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Mar 4, 2019
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My "top-three" for the TAS wishlist are:

The equivalent to Roon Radio (or LMS' "Don't Let The Music Stop" function). More than anything else, Roon Radio has tremendously expanded my musical horizons into music and genres I would likely never have discovered on my own.

A Search function that will display results for existing library contents *and* Qobuz/Tidal titles not yet added to the library all at once, rather than the (at least) two searches -- one for My Music and one for each subscription service -- currently required in TAS

Alternatively, the ability to use Roon's UI as a front end and TAS to actually play music, avoiding Roon's sonic penalty.

Steve Z

I also love the roon radio function but I always turn it OFF for a critical listening sessions.
When on it always lowers the SQ .
This is because of the additional network activity I suspect.
 

dminches

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Oct 22, 2011
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- solving the gapless problem should be a priority; you simply cannot listen to side 2 of Abbey Road, or a good deal of other albums and pieces of music, with even a 3-4 second gap; it ruins the experience

Great post.

I thought there were 2 listening modes and one of them was gapless. For me, gapless is a must since I listen to a lot of live recordings where 1 track just goes into the next seemlessly.
 
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alwayslearning

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Jan 13, 2011
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Great post.

I thought there were 2 listening modes and one of them was gapless. For me, gapless is a must since I listen to a lot of live recordings where 1 track just goes into the next seemlessly.
Gapless is a playback mode but TAS has not achieved true gapless playback yet; there is still a very pregnant pause between tracks using Gapless and Batch modes. They're working on it, Wilson tells me.
 

dminches

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Oct 22, 2011
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Gapless is a playback mode but TAS has not achieved true gapless playback yet; there is still a very pregnant pause between tracks using Gapless and Batch modes. They're working on it, Wilson tells me.

Thanks for that clarification.
 

Esotar

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SGM Extreme with TAS and Divin Marquis

This combination was very awesome.

TAS made two masterpieces be much better.

I hear only rock or metal.

Please understand me. HAHA


 

shaned

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Nov 7, 2019
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SGM Extreme with TAS and Divin Marquis

This combination was very awesome.

TAS made two masterpieces be much better.

I hear only rock or metal.

Please understand me. HAHA


That sounds bloody awesome, totally different impression listening to that through the Extreme and TAS to other devices
 

Esotar

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On next Monday,

With Divin Marquis, I'll post SGM Extreme Roon vs TAS videoes.

My Divin Marquis was sent to my customers. (I'm borrowing all my products with all customers)

I have Divin Noblesse, but my space is very small.

And I deleted Roon, so I can't post comparison movies.

Those movies will make all WBF members realize Roon is the worst software and

TAS is ultimate quality player in the world~!!!
 
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matthias

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Mar 14, 2019
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@EuroDriver

Will TAS alone be able to outperform TAS/HQP in the future for bit-perfect playback?
Thanks

Matt
 

Taiko Audio

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@EuroDriver

Will TAS alone be able to outperform TAS/HQP in the future for bit-perfect playback?
Thanks

Matt

Hi Matt,

TAS/XDPlayer does outperform TAS/HQPlayer on all the bit-perfect DACs we ran comparisons on so far. With the Chord Dave it's a different story. Partially for obvious reasons as it just performs best with a 32/768 data stream, but there are other mechanisms in play which we are investigating. The good news is that those are very likely going to lead to further SQ enhancements for both up-sampling (Chord Dave) and bit-perfect DAC owners.
 
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plasmod3

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You could delete files from disk you never play and do a “cleanup music library” in Roon.
tried cleanup, a bit of a hoarder though haha...can't imagine deleting files off the taiko. does roon scan the whole library on startup?
 

Taiko Audio

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tried cleanup, a bit of a hoarder though haha...can't imagine deleting files off the taiko. does roon scan the whole library on startup?

I don't think so but it does allocate more memory the larger your library is, you can see it yourself in "Task Manager", watch the "RoonAppliance" process when it starts, it can grow in size from a a few 100 MB to several Gigabytes. When it stops expanding you can connect to Roon core. Maybe a caching mechanism of some sort. We have not attempted to "hack" into Roon code to see what it's doing exactly. The logs show a lot of activity like connecting to storage locations and online streaming services but no direct clues to what the memory is used for.
 
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plasmod3

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I don't think so but it does allocate more memory the larger your library is, you can see it yourself in "Task Manager", watch the "RoonAppliance" process when it starts, it can vary in size from a a few 100 MB to several Gigabytes. Maybe a caching mechanism of some sort. We have not attempted to "hack" into Roon code to see what it's doing exactly.
Sounds like its hackable Emilo, you know what i am suggesting:) Will look into roon appliance - several gb of cache is quite crazy and indeed if thats the case it can explain the slowness - i would actually start wondering how much that impacts on the r/w cycles in the ssds we have if it builds a cache everytime on startup.

Tas is built on the logitech squeezebox platform it seems. Given the squeezebox is no longer in production; is it fair to assume that it is going to be hard for ui improvements? The sound quality is simply amazing - an amazing lifelike voice . Thank you Emile and team for taking on this task and building us what is essentially the best product for my setup in 2021!
 

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