Taralabs grandmaster evolution: new top of the line cables from Taralabs

[Andre Marc]

we are speaking to different issues.

i'm saying that cable differences are more clearly heard and appreciated the higher the performance of a system. btw; everything matters more when you can hear more information. differences between recordings are more evidant too.

i think you are saying there are fewer opportunities for improvement as one improves performance. which i don't disagree with if you add the fact that those smaller differences are more and more significant as you go toward higher performance.

look at any race car series or likely anything competive to see these principles at work. sure; the measureable diiferences become less; but the significance of the smaller improvements become larger.

and the effort and resources it requires to find these improvements becomes significantly higher.

commitment to the pursuit is always the variable. and if you don't share the same level of commitment then you will not understand the level of pursuit.

Hey Mike:

I clearly agree with the sentence I bolded above. No doubt.

I think the issue some posters are trying to make is that there is absolutely ZERO correlation between cable pricing
at the SOTA level and cost of manufacturing. They are gauging. It is also a dick measuring contest among manufacturers.
"You have a $35,000 interconnect? Well..I'll top that, here is my $50K IC. $25,000 speaker cable? Ha! Check out my $60,000 cable."

We have seen this with speakers, with two VERY prominent manufacturers, headed by designers with very large egos going head to head.

They pray on the very wealthiest OCD audiophiles who can't stand to have anything but the most expensive cable they can find in their system. It also makes products lower in the line seem "affordable".

The shock value also makes great fodder for internet forums. Which is free marketing.

On the FLIP side, those who can afford it have EVERY RIGHT to spend their money the way they wish, for real or imagined improvements in their audio
systems.

Where some find the escalating pricing of cables outrageous is that it starts to effect the rest of us when it emboldens other manufacturers to raise their prices, and a $1000 IC is now "mid priced" and a $250 power cord is "entry level".

I hope you appreciate my giving a broad overview of the different sides. Having worked in manufacturing and raw material, and having visited over a dozen established audiophile cable factories, and knowning the dealer margins, I think I am decently informed.

 

[GaryProtein]

we are speaking to different issues.

i'm saying that cable differences are more clearly heard and appreciated the higher the performance of a system. btw; everything matters more when you can hear more information. differences between recordings are more evidant too.
. . . .

I agree with that.

 

[RogerD]

when we hear reproduced music cables are a large part of what we hear. some are speaker cables, some are interconnects, others are inside electronics or inside speakers. they all do their part, add something....affect something. and at the top of the food chain they become a bigger and bigger variable collectively.

and when you've taken the room/gear/speakers as far as you can go in a particular direction and are searching for that last smidgen of performance cables loom large as an area of opportunity.

recntly i heard a product which was changed from a previous version mainly internally by the cable geometry inside and it was dramatically better. makes perfect sense to me. this performance change was worth big bucks on the value curve as it moved my reference.

is chasing that last iota of performance worth it to everyone?

of course not.

but cheers to those on the hunt!!!

There is a precise science involved in cable making. The principle is to conduct the audio signal from one end to the other without adding or subtracting from it. What new ground breaking technology is present to justify the price tag? Other then the argument that this or that cable has perfect transmission capbaility.....I think I have heard that all my high end audio life.

 

[MylesBAstor]

when we hear reproduced music cables are a large part of what we hear. some are speaker cables, some are interconnects, others are inside electronics or inside speakers. they all do their part, add something....affect something. and at the top of the food chain they become a bigger and bigger variable collectively.

and when you've taken the room/gear/speakers as far as you can go in a particular direction and are searching for that last smidgen of performance cables loom large as an area of opportunity.

recntly i heard a product which was changed from a previous version mainly internally by the cable geometry inside and it was dramatically better. makes perfect sense to me. this performance change was worth big bucks on the value curve as it moved my reference.

is chasing that last iota of performance worth it to everyone?

of course not.

but cheers to those on the hunt!!!

To Mike's point. Cables along with the AC are crucial to a system's transparency. Cable's can and do make or break a system's transparency, to wit MIT and Skogrand. The cable's "inherent" noise is so vanishingly low that it allows much more information, specifically that of the spatial variety, to pass through the system. But if your source isn't up to it, you won't hear it. The system's transparency is only as good as the weakest link in the chain.

 

[RogerD]

To Mike's point. Cables along with the AC are crucial to a system's transparency. Cable's can and do make or break a system's transparency, to wit MIT and Skogrand. The cable's "inherent" noise is so vanishingly low that it allows much more information, specifically that of the spatial variety, to pass through the system. But if your source isn't up to it, you won't hear it. The system's transparency is only as good as the weakest link in the chain.

So Myles if you remove the "noise" from the connected equipment,theoretically you could achieve the same results with microphone cable.

 

[still-one]

There is a precise science involved in cable making. The principle is to conduct the audio signal from one end to the other without adding or subtracting from it. What new ground breaking technology is present to justify the price tag? Other then the argument that this or that cable has perfect transmission capbaility.....I think I have heard that all my high end audio life.

I disagree. I want a cable that gets me closer to what I want to hear. I don't are if it is passive or active and could care less if it passes a signal unchanged. I want cables that get me closer to what I want to hear.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I disagree. I want a cable that gets me closer to what I want to hear. I don't are if it is passive or active and could care less if it passes a signal unchanged. I want cables that get me closer to what I want to hear.

+1.

the science is wholly besides the point. if it sounds better to my ears it's better.

 

[still-one]

Hey Mike:





Where some find the escalating pricing of cables outrageous is that it starts to effect the rest of us when it emboldens other manufacturers to raise their prices, and a $1000 IC is now "mid priced" and a $250 power cord is "entry level".

I have long felt that is what will crush our hobby in the long term. Manufacturers without a track record, without a distribution chain, without a viable service set-up have a low barrier for entry into audio. There may be a market out there for +$75k speakers, +$50k amps, and +$15k cables and interconnects but new to the market participants feel this is where they should enter. We have too many manufacturers as it is and more seem to be entering every year.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Hey Mike:

I clearly agree with the sentence I bolded above. No doubt.

I think the issue some posters are trying to make is that there is absolutely ZERO correlation between cable pricing
at the SOTA level and cost of manufacturing. They are gauging. It is also a dick measuring contest among manufacturers.
"You have a $35,000 interconnect? Well..I'll top that, here is my $50K IC. $25,000 speaker cable? Ha! Check out my $60,000 cable."

We have seen this with speakers, with two VERY prominent manufacturers, headed by designers with very large egos going head to head.

They pray on the very wealthiest OCD audiophiles who can't stand to have anything but the most expensive cable they can find in their system. It also makes products lower in the line seem "affordable".

The shock value also makes great fodder for internet forums. Which is free marketing.

On the FLIP side, those who can afford it have EVERY RIGHT to spend their money the way they wish, for real or imagined improvements in their audio
systems.

Where some find the escalating pricing of cables outrageous is that it starts to effect the rest of us when it emboldens other manufacturers to raise their prices, and a $1000 IC is now "mid priced" and a $250 power cord is "entry level".

I hope you appreciate my giving a broad overview of the different sides. Having worked in manufacturing and raw material, and having visited over a dozen established audiophile cable factories, and knowning the dealer margins, I think I am decently informed.

as i said in my first post in this thread; after using $66k (at retail) of speaker cables in a system i'm staying away from the whole subject of price and cables. i think if a product brings you enjoyment then the price is not that important unless you, the purchaser decide it is.

i do respect that the OP in his first post listed the price, so it's hard to expect that everyone would roll with that without comment.

 

[RogerD]

+1.

the science is wholly besides the point. if it sounds better to my ears it's better.

When you have total clarity and a total uncongested reproduction of the music.....what more is there? And the science is the point. A uncorrupted audio signal has been possible for many years through cabling. The cable is not the weakest link,far from it if you understand the science. We disagree on this point.

 

[Steve williams]

as i said in my first post in this thread; after using $66k (at retail) of speaker cables in a system i'm staying away from the whole subject of price and cables. i think if a product brings you enjoyment then the price is not that important unless you, the purchaser decide it is.

Well said Mike

I completely agree.

Perhaps it bothers some that they live vicariously off others but for me I love reading peoples experiences with uber high end gear. I must admit Mike that reading many of your posts at various sites over the years I have learned a lot from your experiences and have fashioned some of my decisions based on your experiences. Sort of like "going to school on one's putt"

 

[Elberoth]

 

[JackD201]

Looks like connector snappers.

 

[Andre Marc]

as i said in my first post in this thread; after using $66k (at retail) of speaker cables in a system i'm staying away from the whole subject of price and cables. i think if a product brings you enjoyment then the price is not that important unless you, the purchaser decide it is.

i do respect that the OP in his first post listed the price, so it's hard to expect that everyone would roll with that without comment.

I guess my point is the reason shockingly priced cables always stir a debate is that

a) no one can rationally argue that 16 feet of speaker cable could have anything in the material or build that could possibly warrant
a $50,000, $60.000 or,$75,000 retail price based on the industry standard 5x production mark up. That is a DIFFERENT argument as to
whether they are "worth it" to the buyer.

b) these types of products distort the value of that product segment, and we all feel the effects.

I find the comparisons to Ferraris and exotic cars hysterical. There is no connection what so ever. I could go on for pages as to why a Ferrari is far more fairly priced than most high end audio components. Secondly, pricing in the exotic market has no effect on consumer cars. None.

 

[JackD201]

I don't see FM acoustics having any effect on any items in Best Buy nor do I see any effect of Nordost on any item in Radio Shack either Andre. I fail to see your point.

I bet if you went on the street and asked people randomly what Tara Labs is, the vast majority of people wouldn't know who they are or what they make. The only people that "feel" this are those that "feel" they have just been victimised by some kind of planned obsolescence. You know, "Crap, I don't have the top of the line anymore". Nobody else really cares nor should they.

 

[Andre Marc]

I don't see FM acoustics having any effect on any items in Best Buy nor do I see any effect of Nordost on any item in Radio Shack either Andre. I fail to see your point.

I bet if you went on the street and asked people randomly what Tara Labs is, the vast majority of people wouldn't know who they are or what they make. The only people that "feel" this are those that "feel" they have just been victimised by some kind of planned obsolescence. You know, "Crap, I don't have the top of the line anymore". Nobody else really cares nor should they.

Jack, please. My point was clear. I mean IN OUR hobby. It is a relatively small community. All the cable manufacturers know each other, or of each other. I am not referring to any product that falls out the audiophile sphere. I absolutely know one cable manufacturer who recently developed a "statement" cable, 10 x the price of his previous top cable to a) attract more attention and hits to his website, and b) to gain "credibility". He admitted this to me with regret that it had come to that, btw.

I agree with your statement regarding fear of having not having the latest model. Cable companies are superb at "upgrading" their lines just when sales of the product start to sag.

 

[edorr]

I find the comparisons to Ferraris and exotic cars hysterical. There is no connection what so ever. I could go on for pages as to why a Ferrari is far more fairly priced than most high end audio components. Secondly, pricing in the exotic market has no effect on consumer cars. None.

There is no analogy whatsoever. Ferarri's gross margin (15%) is actually lower than Volkswagen (18%). They just make fairly priced expensive cars. Sell them for less and they'd be out of business. The $50K cable boys could sell them for 1/3 of the price and still make a buck.

The only reason they picked this pricepoint is to be in the same ballpark as the top model of the other ultra expensive cable manufacturers.

 

[Andre Marc]

There is no analogy whatsoever. Ferarri's gross margin (15%) is actually lower than Volkswagen (18%). They just make fairly priced expensive cars. Sell them for less and they'd be out of business. The $50K cable boys could sell them for 1/3 of the price and still make a buck.

The only reason they picked this pricepoint is to be in the same ballpark as the top model of the other ultra expensive cable manufacturers.

One of my tennis partners co-manages a Ferrari/Maserati/Alpha Romeo dealer. I know exactly what the margins are. The Dealer margins are razor thin
and the intense customer care is far beyond anything you will find at an audio dealer.

With dealer margins up to 70% on audio cables, it is a different business model.

 

[JackD201]

Jack, please. My point was clear. I mean IN OUR hobby. It is a relatively small community. All the cable manufacturers know each other, or of each other. I am not referring to any product that falls out the audiophile sphere. I absolutely know one cable manufacturer who recently developed a "statement" cable, 10 x the price of his previous top cable to a) attract more attention and hits to his website, and b) to gain "credibility". He admitted this to me with regret that it had come to that, btw.

I agree with your statement regarding fear of having not having the latest model. Cable companies are superb at "upgrading" their lines just when sales of the product start to sag.

The analogy was yours not mine Andre

 

[Andre Marc]

The analogy was yours not mine Andre

I know Jack, but you misquoted me.

But to your point, not only would the average person not know who Tara Labs is, the average person would not know what an analog
interconnect is. Ask them about a Lightening iPhone cable, or and HDMI cable, well...